Having just had a rather heated discussion with some co-workers a few days ago about religion’s influence on politics (which led to some talk about the abortion issue, among others), I strongly appreciate Archbishop Chaput’s words regarding Senator Biden’s recent plunge into the Nancy Pelosi school of “Catholic” teaching.
Abortion is not an issue on which reasonable people can disagree. It is either murder, or it is not. Logic, not belief, dictates that an unborn child is a human being, although it seems that only those with faith still retain sufficient logic to see the connection. Sin, we know, obfuscates reason (I’ve certainly seen that at work in my own life) and if that is not what is at work in these instances I can’t fathom what is. I don’t mean to argue that liberals are unintelligent, or even that they are horrible people. I know quite a few who are very respectable, very smart individuals whose intellects seem to have been twisted into violating the principle of non-contradiction on this issue. Again, either it is a human, or it is not. It can’t simply be a human if we want it to be, and not a human if we don’t want it to be. The notion of “choice” without reference to what a person is choosing (and what that choice entails) is the most extreme and horrific form of intellectual dishonesty imaginable.
Questions of viability are also the most dangerous sort of straw men, crafted to distract us from the real issue and stalling any meaningful attempt to put a stop to this holocaust - one which far outweighs in numbers the crimes against humanity of Hitler and Stalin combined. Also a distraction (and a stupid position, to be frank) are those exceptions made for rape or incest (the latter, one imagines, usually being related to the former in these cases). Who among us believes that the way to solve a crime is to punish one of the victims rather than the perpetrator? Why should a rapist simply go to jail, when his offspring is put to death for their father’s crime?
It is therefore encouraging when Chaput writes:
Sen. Biden is a man of distinguished public service. That doesn’t excuse poor logic or bad facts. Asked when life begins, Sen. Biden said that, “it’s a personal and private issue.” But in reality, modern biology knows exactly when human life begins: at the moment of conception. Religion has nothing to do with it.People might argue when human “personhood” begins - though that leads public policy in very dangerous directions - but no one can any longer claim that the beginning of life is a matter of religious opinion.
Sen. Biden also confused the nature of pluralism. Real pluralism thrives on healthy, non-violent disagreement; it requires an environment where people of conviction will struggle respectfully but vigorously to advance their beliefs. In his interview, the senator observed that other people with strong religious views disagree with the Catholic approach to abortion. It’s certainly true that we need to acknowledge the views of other people and compromise whenever possible - but not at the expense of a developing child’s right to life. Abortion is a foundational issue; it is not an issue like housing policy or the price of foreign oil. It always involves the intentional killing of an innocent life, and it is always, grievously wrong…
In his Meet the Press interview, Sen. Biden used a morally exhausted argument that American Catholics have been hearing for 40 years: i.e., that Catholics can’t “impose” their religiously based views on the rest of the country. But resistance to abortion is a matter of human rights, not religious opinion. And the senator knows very well as a lawmaker that all law involves the imposition of some people’s convictions on everyone else. That is the nature of the law. American Catholics have allowed themselves to be bullied into accepting the destruction of more than a million developing unborn children a year. Other people have imposed their “pro-choice” beliefs on American society without any remorse for decades.
If you’re reading this and you think abortion is an option that should remain on the table, tell me why? How does Roe not impose the pro-abortion view on those of us who believe it’s murder? What is it, exactly, that you want to be able to choose? Why should the comfort and convenience of not being burdened by an unwanted child be so sacred as to need a right, enshrined in law, that allows you to kill the child that gets in the way of your desire?
I cannot imagine a greater narcissism, with perhaps the exception of those individuals who, in the face of advancing medical technology and sonographic imaging which rules out all the foolish arguments about “unviable cell masses” with clear pictures of little fingers and toes, recognize out loud that the choice they wish to retain is the choice of murder - the killing of a baby, so that they may live as they wish.
What we deserve as a nation for allowing this to continue is too horrible to imagine. History, if the world ever comes to its senses, will not remember us fondly.
(H/T to Peter)
I didn’t see a “no soliciting” sign on your blog rule forum, so I’m soliciting.
After about 3 months of back and forth, I’ve finally secured an interview with the Great Prophet Chaput. I want to make the most of this interview, so I’m asking for a bit of aid with the questions. My solicitation follows:
If you had just one question to ask of His Excellency, what would it be?
I’ll have the opportunity to ask about ten or twelve of these. I think that the readers of your neotraditional/post-postmodern blog would be of great assistance in this area.
Very well written article my friend! I wish I had great writing skillz like yourself. Mind if I copy and paste your article on my facebook page(that is if I can figure out how to do that)?
Matt,
I’ll post your question on the main page. Hopefully you’ll get more answers.
Sarah, as long as you post a link back to the original, that’s fine with me.
Thanks Steve!
[...] by Margaret under Culture Wars Haven’t posted in ages, but I couldn’t let this brilliant bit of writing from Steve Skojec pass unnoticed: Abortion is not an issue on which reasonable people can disagree. [...]
At the very same time that orthodox Catholics rant and rave about what they see as “moral relativism” of liberal Democrats, and applaud when conservative bishops threaten to deny the sacraments to Catholic public servants who don’t tow their conservative line, they defend the pope and bishops who REFUSED to condemn ANY of the following during the time of America’s “greatest generation”:
Many of the most vicious architects of the Nazi Holocaust were Roman Catholics i. e. Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Josef Goebbels, Reinhard Heydrich, Rudolf Hoess, Julius Streicher, Fritz Thyssen, Klaus Barbie, and Franz Von Papen. None of the Catholics above or below was ever publicly excommunicated by “Holy Mother the Church”,
R. C. Engelbert Dollfuss was head of the Nazi state of Austria.
R. C. Leon Degrelle was head of the Nazi state of Belgium.
R. C. Emil Hacha was head of the Nazi state of Bohemia-Moravia.
R. C. Ante Pavelic was head of the Nazi state of Croatia.
R. C. Adolf Hitler was head of the Nazi state of Germany.
R. C. Miklos Horthy was head of the Nazi state of Hungary.
R. C. Konrad Henlein was head of the Nazi state of Sudetenland.
R. C. Pierre Laval was head of the Nazi state of Vichy-France.
R. C. Henry Petain was head of the Nazi state of Vichy-France.
R. C. priest, Fr. Augustin Voloshin was head of the Nazi state of Ruthenia.
R. C. priest, Fr. Josef Tiso was head of the Nazi state of Slovakia.
R. C. priest, Fr. Andrei Hlinka was head of the Nazi state of Slovakia.
R. C. priest, Fr. Anton Koroshec was head of the Nazi state of Yugoslavia.
M. Swaim,
You might ask the good bishop why conservative Catholic churchmen like himself are always ready to threaten liberal Catholics with all kinds of punishment for not being conservative enough, but can’t punish CONSERVATIVE Catholics - as documentented in my previous post, from my http://JesusWouldBeFurious.Org/NaziLeadership.html ship - even when they are committing the mass-murder of 10 million people, which includes millions of innocent Roman Catholics, such as the Polish clergy and intellectuals, along with 6 million Jews?
After refusing to excommunicate ANY of the Nazis during the holocaust, the Vatican actually HELPED the criminals avoid capture and prosecution, and then excommunicated any and all Catholics who joined the Communist Party even if they did NOTHING ELSE.
Something tells me you’re not here for a cup of coffee and a chat about the indefectibility of the One True Church, Rev. Ray. If you’re wondering how I guessed, I think it had something to do with the horror-themed font you use to spell out “Catholic Church” on your very professional-looking website.
Just a suggestion, but you may want to go sell crazy somewhere else. We’re all stocked up.
That being said, if anyone feels the need to answer your questions, they’re free to do so. (Don’t be surprised if the response isn’t overwhelming.)
Just a suggestion, but you may want to go sell crazy somewhere else. We’re all stocked up.
I have got to remember that line next time one of my teens starts veering off the rails…
Steve,
I have a question sort of dealing with this article. Do you have any good resources from the Church/Bishops that state if you are a Catholic, you must vote pro-life? I’ve got a few friends and relatives that seem to want to vote for Obama, but claim they are Catholic and I just want to shoot them an article or two. Not that this will probably do any good since they really aren’t devout Catholics anyway, but one must try right?
Why am I not surprised when Catholics today show the same disinterest in the fate of the millions of holocaust victims today that they showed in Nazi Germany? Who cares if so many of the Nazi monsters were Roman Catholics!
In his first letter, John says in ch. 4, v. 20 that it is impossible to love God whom they do not see and not love their brothers and sisters whom they DO see. You don’t have to answer to me. But you WILL have to answer to HIM!
Rev. Ray,
Assuming that I, or anyone else here on a blog, who all have day jobs and families and haven’t put years of research into proof-texting our claims, could take adequate time to look into your characterizations and offer a coherent response, what difference would it make to you? You’ve already decided. You left the priesthood to pursue another path, you espouse a historically and theologically inaccurate soteriology, and as far as I can tell, you identify with a political philosophy (socialism) which when applied (communism) has been responsible for the deaths of over 100 million people worldwide in the 20th century alone.
You want to vilify Catholicism because members of the Nazi party were baptized into the Church? Then explain to me how, on balance, those members weigh against the fact that the Catholic Church itself was persecuted by the Third Reich? Any clergy who were found to be preaching against the regime wound up in concentration camps - like St. Maximilian Kolby. I’ve seen estimates that between 5 and 5.5 million Poles, including 3 million Polish Jews, died or were killed under Nazi occupation. Considering that Poland is a Catholic country, what do you think the likely religion of the other 2.5 million non-Jews was?
I’ve been to Auschwitz, have you? Have you seen the pictures of priest-prisoners hanging on the walls there, or written in the logs?
Evil hurts everyone. I don’t know the story behind the names you cited, but I guarantee that if the Church did nothing, there was nothing productive to be done. Do you want them excommunicated after death? What will satisfy you? If you don’t have this issue to attack the Church with, will you be forced to resort to another?
People like you don’t want solutions. You want problems you can keep bludgeoning the Church with, masking your a priori “The Church is evil and therefore look what kind of people it produces” arguments behind the veil of what you believe to be legitimate criticisms.
I’ve got news for you, buddy - the Church is made up of hypocritical sinners. St. Paul had St. Stephen killed. St. Augustine was a sex addict. Blessed Bartolo Longo was a Satanic Priest. And those are just some of the good guys.
There are LOTS of Catholics in hell. Catholics who don’t live the virtues they are required to. Catholics who ignore God’s love given to them through the sacraments. Catholics who abandon and betray their faith and vocations.
On that last point, I’d urge you to take a hard look at yourself. your own biography indicates that you despaired of the Catholic faith, left the priesthood for an apostate Church, and married a woman in violation of vows you made to God himself. Further, you argue that “Good Christians should be ‘pro choice’”, in direct violation of the fifth commandment.
Take the beam out of your own eye, my friend, before you go tearing down Christ’s Church. As your brother through baptism, I rebuke you, in the hopes that you will repent and spare your eternal soul.
Steve, Your confusion of “socialism” (which is the political theory being applied very successfully in most of the progressive countries in Europe today) with the “communism” practiced in Russia in the last century is sad. But your dishonest attempt to identify my “Liberal Like Christ” beliefs with that atheistic communism is pathetic. Have you ever heard of the commandment, “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor”?
As a devout follower of him who was put to death for being a “blasphemer”, I’m flattered by being only called an “apostate”, Steve. You may recall that he foretold that those who followed in his footsteps would suffer the same fate at the hands of people who - despite their claiming to act in God’s name - did not know God.
You say, Steve :”You want to vilify Catholicism because members of the Nazi party were baptized into the Church?” No, NOT because they were baptized (as powerless infants) but because they were not EXCOMMUNICATED by “Holy Mother the Church”, when they were grown up Catholics directing their Christian subjects to join them in committing horrendous crimes. How can you APPLAUD Chaput for chastizing Liberal American Democrats TODAY and defend Catholic bishops who couldn’t do the same for Nazi mass-murderers in Europe within my own life-time, if not yours?
You ask, Steve: “Then explain to me how, on balance, those members weigh against the fact that the Catholic Church itself was persecuted by the Third Reich? Any clergy who were found to be preaching against the regime wound up in concentration camps - like St. Maximilian Kolby. I’ve seen estimates that between 5 and 5.5 million Poles, including 3 million Polish Jews, died or were killed under Nazi occupation. Considering that Poland is a Catholic country, what do you think the likely religion of the other 2.5 million non-Jews was? I’ve been to Auschwitz, have you? Have you seen the pictures of priest-prisoners hanging on the walls there, or written in the logs?”
I am very much aware of Fr. Maximilian Kolbe. It may have been heroic of him to volunteered to be executed in the place of another concentration camp prisoner. It should be noted, however, that he took the place of a fellow Catholic, not a Jew, and that far from being imprisoned for opposing the Nazis, he had served as editor of an antisemitic Catholic journal and was persecuted simply because he was a member of the Polish intellectual class, which the Nazis wanted to exterminate in its entirety.
No, I have not been to Auschwitz, Steve, nor have I been able to travel back in time, but I trust the work of scholars who have been there, and studied the situation very carefully.
One such was the devout Catholic Scholar, Gordon Zahn, who went to Germany in the 1950’s in the hope of vindicating his beloved church. After spending a lot of time scouring original documents, such as the Catholic periodicals of the war period, he reached the sad conclusion: “The German Catholic who looked to his religious superiors for spiritual guidance and direction regarding service in Hitler’s wars received virtually the same answers he would have received from the NAZI ruler himself.” { German Catholics and Hitler’s Wars, p. 17 )
Another devout Catholic scholar who spent a great deal of time in Germany, and then wrote the monumental study critical study of the way the Catholic Church has treated the Jews throughout the centuries, Constantine’s Sword, was the former Paulist priest, James Carroll, who wrote:
“Soon enough, Hitler’s pressure on Catholic youth groups, his assault on confessional schools, and his curtailment of Church prerogatives theoretically protected by the Concordat would prompt criticism from a minority of bishops, including Cardinal Faulhaber of Munich, who delivered a series of Advent sermons rebutting Nazi assaults on “Jewish Scriptures.” (The Cardinal made no effort to defend the Jewish people, however. His only purpose was to defend the Jewish scriptures, insofar as these were an integral part of the Christian Bible.)
A number of heroic priests, like Alfred Delp and Bernhard Lichtenberg, would boldly challenge Nazi policies: Delp was hanged in Berlin, and Lichtenberg “died en route to Dachau:’ But in the end, a very small percentage — 1.5 percent — of German priests were imprisoned during the war. About a thousand priests died in Dachau, but of those, nearly nine hundred were Poles, almost certainly interned not for protests but as part of the Nazi campaign against the Polish intelligentsia. Where nine of twelve bishops of Prussia alone had been exiled in the Kulturkampf, (under the Kaiser) the total number of Catholic bishops driven from their seats during the twelve years of the Nazi onslaught was three.” [ p. 507]
Rev. Ray,
No, NOT because they were baptized (as powerless infants) but because they were not EXCOMMUNICATED by “Holy Mother the Church”, when they were grown up Catholics directing their Christian subjects to join them in committing horrendous crimes. How can you APPLAUD Chaput for chastizing Liberal American Democrats TODAY and defend Catholic bishops who couldn’t do the same for Nazi mass-murderers in Europe within my own life-time, if not yours?
You’re missing the point here.
I have neither the time nor the inclination to research the case you’re presenting, and so cannot comment substantively on your claims. But if I did have the time and the inclination, and if I did happen to find that every word you’ve said was true and could hold up to scrutiny (which I doubt), it wouldn’t matter. It wouldn’t change one single thing about my Catholic belief.
I am not now, and have never “defended” any Bishops who may not have stood up to the Nazis - this is a straw man, and while you need it to have a quarrel with me it is extremely disingenuous.
I am defending, and will continue to defend my Catholic faith, which despite the sins, transgressions, and even monstrous lapses in judgment of her members throughout history, remains the One True Church. If the entire Catholic Church in Germany got up and wrapped itself in swastikas in support of the Reich, it would have been a horrific tragedy and surely a great sin, but it would not in any way damage the indefectibility of the Church as a whole, or detract from the reality that it is a divinely instituted body which mediates all grace into the world and is at its core incorruptible.
“The Gates of Hell will not prevail” implies that Hell is certainly going to try, and even that Hell will achieve some success. Christ would have offered no such pre-emptive assurance if He knew it would always to appear to the faithful as if the Church had the upper hand in the battle with Satan. His assurance matters most, in fact, in those times when it seems certain that the Gates of Hell will prevail. It is then when we fall back on His promise and trust in His protection.
Your argument, while it may be relevant in a historical context, matters not at all in a a contemporary religious one. The question of what should the Church have done at any given moment of history and whether or not it failed to do so alters in no way its divine institution or its infallibly taught truths.
If there were Catholics who supported the Nazi regime, and in so doing violated the law of the Church in such a way that excommunication was warranted, then yes, they should have been excommunicated.
But what does this have to do with the holocaust being perpetrated today, in which many of our Bishops have demonstrated precisely the same lack of leadership that you are condemning the German Bishops of the 1940s for? Do you wish to see these errors repeated now, because they were not rectified then? Should we be more focused on resolving the errors of the past than addressing the crises of the present?
For the life of me, I can’t figure it out. What exactly is your argument?
after reading the material here on your site, i
would like to leave my thoughts on the pages here…better summed up in the following quote:
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.
Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” - Mohandas (Mahatma) Gandhi
religions and supernatural beliefs keep humanity in bondage,countless billions are made to live their lives in fear of things like hell and plagues and various “wraths”, “curses” and “spells”
by the way rev ray whatever his name is (the liberal for christ) has been on our site as well. he incites a debate, by posting his “insight” but then leaves.
Well isn’t that special.
lol how christ like of you to notice.
rev ray’s pages are posted all over this site. myself being an atheist don’t care one way or the other if jesus was liberal or conservative but I would really like to see someone put a sock into the man’s mouth and debate the issue with our other author tothewire. the conservative on the site (kay) is not qualified as she doesn’t own a dictionary or bible apparently and tothewire and her “rev ray whatever” are doing circles around her. any arguments i may have are disregarded on the grounds that i am an atheist (guess they gave up on saving my soul).
http://tothewire.wordpress.com/
Lawman2,
Are you taking issue with me or AGREEING with me?
You say,
“after reading the material here on your site, i
would like to leave my thoughts on the pages here…better summed up in the following quote:
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.
Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” - Mohandas (Mahatma) Gandhi.
Did you take that quote from my very own http://LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/ web site, where I have featured it on the very first page?!?
i do not agree with you or any other “religion pusher” selling fairytales.i took the quote from your page that tothewire posted on tothewires site. i like the quote as i have thought it many times when i come across christians.but the quote is after all Gandhi’s.
i was hoping for some cheap intertainment hoping one of these other “religion pushers” would debate with you on the tothewire site.
i live in a country that is slowly but inexorably being taken over by religious believers; worse, since religions by definition are totalitarian in nature, we all will lose precious freedoms that many died to protect.
entertainment that is. guess kay is rubbing off on the best of us.
Steve, your “gates of hell” argument boils down to this:
Not only has the Catholic Church never failed in the past, but it can’t fail in the future, no matter how hard it may TRY, because the son of God has promised that it won’t.
The trouble with the argument is that you are ASSUMING several things that are not necessarily true, i.e.
a) that the Gospels which were written 30 + years after Jesus died (a life-time in those days) by unknown persons, accurately represent Jesus’ actual words
b) that “the church” was crucial to Jesus, when in fact only ONE of the four gospels even mention it, and that gospel only on two of its pages, and most importantly,
c) that this “church” was the Roman Catholic Church as it would exist in every generation and place in history.
Sorry but this will be my last post here, as I can’t be everywhere and I have more pressing places to be at.
Sorry but this will be my last post here, as I can’t be everywhere and I have more pressing places to be at.
That’s good, Ray. You weren’t really convincing anyone of your arguments. You might has well have been yelling into a well.
Ray,
Despite the entertainment derived (no doubt by all) from your historical and theological inaccuracies, as the proverb says, “don’t let the door hit you on the way out.”
gotta tell you i certainly have enjoyed them.
this user friendly god of rev ray’s just doesn’t fit into the picture i have of your god.maybe we should call the new jesus (rev whatever his name is has created) baron the comrade, his new religion comradianity, and the followers comradians.i’ll still be an atheist in the end, but it sure would clear up who’s god is who’s for me.
i still say liberal and jesus (as described in the bible by an bible thumper i have ever talked to in the past) don’t go hand in hand… i just can’t see jesus being a door greeter at an abortion clinic or holding a sign promoting homosexuals right to marriage…
his new user friendly religion may be more dangerous than the old as we still do not know the influence it will have over politics and government as a whole.he is just as intolerant of atheist as you are.
tell me why do you have this site?is it in hopes that you might reach just one of the “unsaved”? if so, then why do you only welcome those who believe the way you do?
tell me why do you have this site?is it in hopes that you might reach just one of the “unsaved”? if so, then why do you only welcome those who believe the way you do?
It’s not designed as a tool for evangelization, actually, but it can serve that purpose provided we have one key ingredient - intellectual honesty.
Ray Dubuque is by all accounts a professional troll, who has been doing this for years. Google him, and you’ll find no small amount of discussion about his beliefs and tactics.
I have no problem discussing what I believe with people willing to actually listen and have a fruitful conversation. Having done this for quite a few years myself, I have a pretty good sense of when that’s not going to happen.
i like your answer.
i don’t have to google the guy as tothewire has his pages all over our site.which angers me some as i find the man to be intellectually challenged.
i would welcome his thoughts even though i do not agree with them if he were truly trying to be honest in his sale of jesus.
well now that rev (whatever his name is) is no longer here,you will not have me bothering you anymore…no need for you worry about my behind as i will be careful not to let the door here hit it on my way out.
I thought I was done with this site, but I’m still getting email notices, so I’m back to try to cut ALL ties. But I couldn’t help but notice that Steve is taking advantage of my absence to bash me.
Actually one of the reasons I’m going to avoid Catholic forums from now on is the habit they have of suppressing dissent. Several such sites have not only deleted MY responses to their views, but have gone so far as to delete THEIR VERY OWN posts, after I have exposed their dishonesty and/or stupidity.
Steve, as for your absurd claim “Ray Dubuque is by all accounts a professional troll”, aren’t you confusing YOURSELF with “ALL”? Has your church dropped the 8th commandment, “You shall not bear FALSE witness against your neighbor.”?
My 200+ pages have not been viewed over 666,000 times in the past year because everybody views ME as a troll. I challenge you to find a testimonials page anywhere with testimonials that compares with my http://LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/testimonials.html , which shows there’s a whole outside of outside of your little cacoon who don’t view me the way you do.
Maybe I’ll stay around at least long enough to see whether you PUBLISH or HIDE my response to your slander.
Ray,
Perhaps you’ve missed it, but here’s a good working definition of a troll:
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.
Now, let’s see: one “Rev” Ray Dubuque pops into a forum in which he has never before participated, the topic of which is Archbishop Chaput’s teaching about abortion, and makes the claim that the Catholic Church is supportive of Nazis.
Controversial? Check.
Inflammatory? Check.
Irrelevant? Check.
Off-topic? Check.
Intended to provoke? Check.
Of course, feel free to cry “help, help, I’m being repressed!” while nobody is repressing you. No comments or posts have been deleted here, despite what you say you’ve experienced elsewhere.
And just to be clear, again, on the “professional troll” comment: you haven’t been slandered, you’ve been accurately identified.
Your site, your work, the time you spend posting contrary comments in other forums trying to disrupt the conversation there and steer it toward your rhetorical purposes - it all sets off the troll alarms.
The stupid thing that I’ve done is break the cardinal rule - “never feed a troll.”
It’s sad that people still imagine Catholic bishops deserve the right to act like moral giants lording it over liberal Democratic politicians in America when as I demonstrate on my web site and allude to on your blog, the Catholic papacy and hierarchy proved themselves nothing but moral pygmies in Nazi Germany, in Fascist Spain and worst of all in Ustasha Croatia.
All of the monsters they supported throughout those years in those Catholic countries were conservative Roman Catholics like yourselves in that they were - praise the Lord - opposed to abortion!
If you don’t see the relevance of these facts to this chapter of your blog, then the problem is yours, not mine.
In the meantime, the NaziLeadership page I recommended back on Sept. 10 has been viewed about 7,000 times - which didn’t happen because I was a troll, but because they heard of something that they were interested in and had to explore for themselves.
I thought you were gonna leave. How many “last posts” can one guy have?
[...] Material for this article came from the following web sites: http://steveskojec.com/2008/09/09/chaput-makes-abortion-simple-enough-for-a-liberal-to-understand/#c… [...]