Pope invites Muslim to Vatican, Muslim denies the Holy Trinity on Vatican grounds.
Here’s what was said in the “third moment“:
“Oh God, to you all praise, O Lord, to you all praise, O Creator of the heavens and the earth, O You who know the unknown and the manifest, O Lord of everything and its sovereign, we testify that there is no god but You alone and You have no partner, we seek refuge in You from the evil in ourselves and the evil of Satan, his partners….”
St. John of Damascus writing on God’s “associate” (AKA, “partner”):
Moreover, they call us Hetaeriasts, or Associators, because, they say, we introduce an associate with God by declaring Christ to the Son of God and God. We say to them in rejoinder: ‘The Prophets and the Scriptures have delivered this to us, and you, as you persistently maintain, accept the Prophets. So, if we wrongly declare Christ to be the Son of God, it is they who taught this and handed it on to us.’ But some of them say that it is by misinterpretation that we have represented the Prophets as saying such things, while others say that the Hebrews hated us and deceived us by writing in the name of the Prophets so that we might be lost. And again we say to them: ‘As long as you say that Christ is the Word of God and Spirit, why do you accuse us of being Hetaeriasts? For the word, and the spirit, is inseparable from that in which it naturally has existence. Therefore, if the Word of God is in God, then it is obvious that He is God. If, however, He is outside of God, then, according to you, God is without word and without spirit. Consequently, by avoiding the introduction of an associate with God you have mutilated Him. It would be far better for you to say that He has an associate than to mutilate Him, as if you were dealing with a stone or a piece of wood or some other inanimate object. Thus, you speak untruly when you call us Hetaeriasts; we retort by calling you Mutilators of God.’
Well, in fairness to the Bishop of Rome, this represents continuity with the Church’s approach for at least the last 30 years. Even Benedict went along with it. That in turn implies this: if you insist on holding to the same beliefs that your Catholic parents did (or grandparents, depending on how old you are), then in the eyes of the current Church you are completely out of the Catholic “mainstream”, and probably a vicious bigot to boot, as well as being a schismatic wannabe. Now, whether or not you think euceminism (whatever it means exactly) is a good thing, or whether or not you’re even a Catholic or a Christian, if you’re intellectually honest, you have to admit that such an abrupt change in what is viewed as morally acceptable by a 2,000 year old institution is notable, to say the least. Personally I think it’s insane.
And again, if you’re intellectually honest (or perhaps just not totally brain dead), you have to confront this implication: If the Church is right now, then it was wrong for 1950 years. Hundreds of millions of people including every Pope, every Saint, most every priest and the vast majority of laypeople-hundreds of millions in all-were wrong and didn’t know it. But once you admit that, it follows (if you’re intellectually honest, etc.) that you have almost no grounds for believing in the truth of what the Church is currently saying.
So why not just chuck it in favor of doing yoga, advancing your “career” and engaging in mutually voluntary acts of sleeping around (not necessarily in that order)? As long as you don’t hurt anybody and make the world a better place, where’s the harm? (And isn’t that really what the true message of Jesus was all along?) And when you finally settle down and have your 1 or 2 kids, you can still take them to the occasional Mass to show that tradition, community and, yes, “God” are also important. Of course they are. You’re not an atheist, after all. You fully appreciate the higher things, in their proper place of course. Who ever suggested otherwise?
“If the Church is right now, then it was wrong for 1950 years.”
Agreed, Mr. Spalding, but I’m afraid that you’re still thinking like a traditionalist. If that point was made to the pontiff, I suspect that he’d smile patiently and tolerantly and reply that the Church was perfectly right to think on Thomist lines until Vatican II, but since then, we’ve moved a few more stops towards Omega Point Junction, our true destination, and that Truth has evolved accordingly. In conclusion, he’d probably gently chide that we shouldn’t be so rigid in our insistence on past doctrine. (Of course, the modernists are pretty rigid in their insistence on total flexibility, but that never seems to get printed, does it?)
“Those, who are unhappily infected with these errors, hold that dogmatic truth is not absolute but relative, that is, it agrees with the varying necessities of time and place and with the varying tendencies of the mind, since it is not contained in immutable revelation, but is capable of being accommodated to human life.”
– Pius XI, Mortalium Animos
“Dogma is not only able, but ought to evolve and to be changed. This is strongly affirmed by the Modernists, and clearly flows from their principles. For among the chief points of their teaching is the following, which they deduce from the principle of vital immanence, namely, that religious formulas if they are to be really religious and not merely intellectual speculations, ought to be living and to live the life of the religious sense. This is not to be understood to mean that these formulas, especially if merely imaginative, were to be invented for the religious sense. Their origin matters nothing, any more than their number or quality. What is necessary is that the religious sense — with some modification when needful — should vitally assimilate them. In other words, it is necessary that the primitive formula be accepted and sanctioned by the heart; and similarly the subsequent work from which are brought forth the .secondary formulas must proceed under the guidance of the heart. Hence it comes that these formulas, in order to be living, should be, and should remain, adapted to the faith and to him who believes. Wherefore, if for any reason this adaptation should cease to exist, they lose their first meaning and accordingly need to be changed.”
– Pope St. Pius X, Pascendi Dominici Gregis
Pius XI, Pius X… yup, they give good examples of the kind of thinking we’ve obviously moved beyond. In the words of 3 Mustaphas 3, “Forward, in all directions!”
(And just in case someone doesn’t get my irony… I’m being ironic.)
It’s good to know we’ve finally moved “beyond Christ” and molded our faith into the form of something like an incomprehensible Olympic Mascot.
“So why not just chuck it in favor of doing yoga, advancing your “career” and engaging in mutually voluntary acts of sleeping around (not necessarily in that order)? As long as you don’t hurt anybody and make the world a better place, where’s the harm?”
That’s exactly what my family has done. Mind you, in the 1940’s my catholic aunt (not my great-aunt, my *aunt*) allowed herself to die before aborting a baby for medical health-of-the-mother reasons. Just one generation later, my siblings don’t attend mass, have had a variety of non-successful interfaith couplings, have an assemblage of children by an assemblage of fathers, etc. On the other hand, they love to go to Europe and gawk at cathedrals built by people of faith.
meerk,
You’re not alone,friend. Steve predicted this latest abomination in the Vatican, and it’s indifference to Truth like this which caused the massive loss of Faith we all see in our families and everywhere else.
We’re the “white sheep” in our families, because somewhere we made the choice to continue to view sin as ugly and bad, while the crowd that follows Satan’s “I am God” world view, thinks the only sin around now, is speaking about sin ( defined as “judging” ). And what they all do that used to be bad, is now just respectable different choices. Sound familiar?
Maybe they have to redefine God, His Church, and evil, in order to try to live with their squelched consciences and justify passing their behavior on to the next generation…It’s frustrating, upsetting, and a source of continual persecution.
But Jesus told us when we see all these things happening, we should look up, and know He’s at the door, and persevere in doing good. So we suggest we all pray for one another, and for all our family members and friends and everyone we know who is in the dark, including the current Pope.
… speaking of the Pope and his “individual” Pentecost prayers that are not syncretism:
We just saw a great analogy that would be funny if it weren’t being tried on the faithful.
A wife gets caught eating out in a restaurant with another man, and says to her irate husband, :
,
“We’re not eating together, we’re just together, eating”
.
.
Wonderful example your catholic Aunt has left [us], thanks be to God and, surely, may she not miss her reward.
We have hers and other saints examples, so let’s persevere, it is worthwhile, it is indeed very worthwhile …
they likely even say they are proud IRISH catholics or GERMAN catholics or the like – have a harpee! better still a kilkennie!
By the way, you knew why that Sumo wrestlers shave their legs, don’t you? They do NOT want to be confused with feminists…
I beg to differ “past 50+ years.
Ecumenism is the universal solvent dissolving Tradition.
And if you wonder why we Catholic Children can not have nice things – like the Mass – it is because Dad is forever breaking tradition.
There isn’t enough ibuprofen. Or port.
I always stop the voluntary destruction of my liver right before some new outrage emerges.
Courage, mes frères. Faith was made for times like these.
Quite so.
“Sorrow can sometimes be alleviated by good sleep and a bath” – St Thomas Aquinas
I’ve also been listening to a great deal of Bach and Mozart over the past three days or so. Requiem (Lacrimosa) seems particularly poignant for me.
drprice2
Thanks, laughter is sometimes the best medicine…:-)
Mr. Ferrara offered 12 years ago an account of the Assisi mess in 1986. This doesn’t seem worse. He makes the case that no one has been compelled to participate in this sort of thing (and few do), but delineates the ways in which ecumenism has been corrosive to the life of the Church.
The scandal many are taken is understandable. However, that precise formula “and he has no partner or associate” can arguably be seen in context to be a failure to understand Christian faith. See http://theologicalflint.com/
“taking” not taken.
Nothing personal, but It seems to us that the scandal is not mitigated but exacerbated by the fact that the speaker’s words are full of misunderstandings and twisting of Doctrine and Dogma.
While the Catholic Faithful were trying to celebrate Pentecost Sunday, (a Feast commemorating the coming of the Holy Spirit whose Truth was clearly and fearlessly proclaimed by the anointed Vicar of Christ and the apostles, converting thousands) Pope Francis chose to give Satan the podium, to deny the Blessed Trinity and proclaim error.
Perhaps there is more discussion going on now among some, but the fact that God can make good come out of evildoing, doesn’t mean it’s good to do evil..
Steve, I have just read the most recent entries (the last three). Francis would not have been able to do what he is doing had recent popes not paved the way for him.
I would like to ask you something and this is not meant as being confrontational.
What is the point of writing these things if there is no answer to the question: what is a Catholic to do? We are told that in order to save our soul, we must be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
Dear Lorra,
We can’t speak for Steve, but personally, we find this airing of ideas on this blog quite helpful in maintaining our sanity and inner calm and charity while living through these times. There is room for articulating anguish as well as reminders to pray and persevere, and thankfully, often we learn more about our Faith and what the Popes of the Past have taught, without modernist distortion, and with Steve’s ability to pinpoint the core issues and elucidate the answers. And, he’s funny, too!
We are very grateful for it. Hope this helps you..
‘[t]he Father from whom every family, whether spiritual or nautural, takes its name,’ cf. Ep 3:14-15
Pope = Papa = Father
Q 197. What are we commanded by the fourth Commandment?
A . By the Fourth Commandment we are commanded to love, revernce, and obey our parents in all that is not sin.
(A catechism of Christian Doctrine | Catholic Truth Society).
Aloha Lorra, not speaking for Mr. Skojec, but i hope the above may help resolve the apparent conflict …
I have great compassion for your point. Steve is providing a spectacular forum here. When my children were young their mom was not the best example for them. I have a daughter who is gifted, 150 IQ, and she would inquire as to when she should listen to mommy. The answer I gave her is the same consolation I hope to give to you. You owe your obedience just so as your consent does not mean doing evil. This was hard for a pre-teen, in an abjectly non-Christian environment their mother had subjected them too, to discern. It meant we had to talk a lot about what constituted evil versus inconvenience. It’s the same things we discuss here. Our Lord has provided Our Lady and approved Catholic-mystics as prophets during this nadir of Church History. The Neo-catholics have a 50 year-old record now of devastation. Traditional Ecclesiology has every Triumph worth trumpeting. The NEW ORDER Church has nothing but propaganda and crude novelties. So we minister to one another’s hearts, reviving the spiritual catacombs our Church was born into, even as we must look past the cultural bath-houses and dens-of-thieves we must often endure to receive The Sacraments. I would also like to caution peering into the abyss a bit too much. Some souls are lit afire by the audacity of evil, while others can develop a sadness, that scripture suggests, can kill a soul. You know your heart best only second to The Most High. Lepanto needed her soldiers angry and indignant to prevail, but the battle also required many cloisters offering prayers and sacrifices as well. PAX CHRISTI! =+)
beautiful, beautiful comment Joseph….thank you.
Ditto Joseph, Thank you. “minister to one another’s hearts” Thanks be to God, so true.
Just superb, thank you friend!
By the way, I made a cheap shot against yoga which I want to apologize for. (I’m actually being serious here). My wife, a Shiite Catholic (Jim Gaffigan’s term) has used it for profit during pregnancy and after. It can be quite helpful.
Europe: Vatican’s chief exorcist has claimed that practicing yoga and reading ‘Harry Potter’ brings evil. Father Gabriel Amorth, who has carried out more than 70,000 exorcisms in the past 25 years after being appointed by the late Pope John Paul II, surprised delegates at a conference by revealing his dislike for yoga and ‘Harry Potter’.“Practising yoga brings evil as does reading Harry Potter. They may both seem innocuous but they both deal with magic and that leads to evil,” the Daily Mail quoted him as saying. “Yoga is the Devil’s work. You thing you are doing it for stretching your mind and body but it leads to Hinduism. All these oriental religions are based on the false belief of reincarnation,” he said.Speaking on the subject of People And Religion at a fringe event at the Umbria Film Festival in Terni, Father Amorth spoke of his distaste for JK Rowling’s young wizard.
“People think it is an innocuous book for children but it’s about magic and that leads to evil. In Harry Potter the Devil is at work in a cunning and crafty way, he is using his extraordinary powers of magic and evil,” he said.“Satan is always hidden and the thing he desires more than anything is for people to believe he does not exist. He studies each and everyone of us and our tendencies towards good and evil and then he tempts us. (November 29, 2011) Up until relatively recently, yoga was understood to be a philosophical meditation system, developed thousands of years ago in India. The word ‘yoga’ is derived from the Sanskrit word ‘yuj’, meaning to unite or to bind. Interestingly, the root of the word ‘religion’ is found in the Latin words of ‘re’ and ‘ligare’, where ‘re’ is a prefix indicating return, and ‘ligare’ means to bind – suggesting that the etymological roots of ‘yoga’ and ‘religion’ are not dissimilar.
The basis for the historical understanding of yoga lies in the Yoga Sutras, a text attributed to the sage Patañjali that dates back almost two thousand years. It describes a system of meditation and philosophy consisting of eight “limbs”, or aspects, which for the most part involve thought processes leading to a healthy and happy mental existence. There isn’t a lot of talk about ‘asanas’, i.e. physical postures. So when some yogis claim that yoga is just a form of exercise and stretching, and that it’s nothing to do with spirituality, they don’t quite cover the whole truth, at least historically speaking.
(We have to be weary of eastern mysticism. There is a book called, “Sinister Yogi’s”, by David Gordon White. The premise is Yoga is a billion-dollar industry and is for “attracting housewives and hipsters, New Agers and the old-aged. But our modern conception of yoga derives much from nineteenth-century..” and implies that it is doing for women today what spiritism did for women 100-150 years ago. At that time, despondent women, having lost so much family to both the Civil War and The Great War, were looking for assurances and final good-byes from loved ones. The enemy is a deceiver whose end-game is death. Today, the fathers of v-2 have removed much of the Traditional Spirituality/Mysticism of The Faith in favor of felt banners and tepid 60’s tunes. Yet, we hunger for this connection with God, this intimacy. Nature’s excrement fills that vacuum with the pentecostalist heresy and a plethora of New Age vomit that has it’s origin in paganism. “Feelings” can be exploited by evil rather easily as we know. Passions make excellent slaves, but ruthless masters, to paraphrase Chesterton. One of the tenants of The Faith is not to seek out Spiritual Consolations, but be grateful for them, if and when, THE HOLY GHOST gives them. St Teresa of Avila advised her nuns of this, after her death, revealing she had been deceived when her appetite for such favors had grown into an addiction of sorts. This from The Doctor of Mystical Theology, herself! Catholicism is about acceding to God’s Will, even if there be suffering. Have your wife think about meditating with Gregorian Chant, while praying the Rosary, perhaps. This was offered in a spirit of Fraternal Charity, my brother..)
For the past few days, I’m unable to “like” comments here for some reason, so just thought I’d chime in to tell you that I am continuing to enjoy yours, JD. You are a wealth of information–much appreciated for your efforts in replying as you have thus far.
Thank you!
Yeah…I too haven’t been able to access “likes”…hmmmm.
And I second Char’s comment….great stuff Joseph; thanks! Johnette Benkovic has a book I’ve heard is very good about the dangers of new age and eastern mysticism/practices called “New Age Counterfeit”….I believe it has a section about yoga and how spiritually dangerous it is….it is a portal.
Strange. They work for me. I just liked your comment.
Ad Maiorem DEI Gloriam!!! =+)
Is it possible to be aware of and pretty much agree with all of the above (as my wife is and does) and yet still use yoga (taught by a pretty American woman in a spandex jumpsuit) to stretch one’s muscles? Can one detach the end result from the sources?
I know people who treat yoga as a religion (or who are perhaps sort of on the road to doing so without being aware of it). I also know many people who treat bodily and “spiritual health” (detached from God) as a religion. But I wouldn’t put my wife in either of those categories.
But I appreciate the comment and agree with much of it. (I’m the one who dissed yoga as a “lifestyle” choice in the first place.) And of course I could be wrong on this issue.
One can merely look up “Yoga” on Wikipedia (of all places) to find that it is much more than just an exercise regimen. The physical poses are intricately linked to the ultimate goals as stated. Despite claims to the contrary, I would be extremely skeptical of claims that one can separate them and “just do exercises.” The experience and the testimony of experts has convinced me that the claims of meditation (TM) and yoga that they are not associated with the goals of their particular Hindu/Buddhist religion are not true
We’ve gotten the Church we deserve. Let no one be mistaken: God is still in charge. None of this is by accident.
How true @tm30 and there are plenty such examples from the OT. E.g. the Ark of the Covenant being taken away from the Israelites when they failed to keep their Covenant with God.
Another angle, those molester priests, were from our own families …
One has to realize that the Muslim people (as well as the Jewish people) do not accept Christ as God. Jesus said, “I AM The Way, The Truth, and The Life, no one comes to (know) the Father except through me.” (The “know” is my insert.) So no Muslim or Jew who comes to the Vatican is going to acknowledge the Trinity. Jesus is The Truth. So anyone who does not know Jesus does not truly know the Father. We must find the humility to dialog with people who do not truly know the Father and the salvation He gives through Jesus as well as the gifts He brings through the Holy Spirit.
When Pope Francis asks an atheist to dialog with him, will we be surprised when they deny the very existence of God?
I don’t understand anything from the Bible or Koran. They seem some old outdated delirium. The jews are scammers and con artists mostly, been scammed by multiple jews. Fog is real.
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