Pope Francis, who will soon preach at a Pentecostal church in Rome — and plans to offer them “an apology from my church for the hurt it has brought to their congregation.”
(No word on whether the Penetecostals will apologize for their propagation of heresy.)
In any case, the Vicar of Christ evidently doesn’t want anything to do with that solemn nonsense known as “evangelization.” Again, he tells a non-Catholic he has no intention to try to convert anyone:
It’s fair to ask what kind of Catholic Church we as Evangelicals want to see. At lunch I asked Pope Francis what his heart was for evangelism. He smiled, knowing what was behind my question. His comment was, “I’m not interested in converting Evangelicals to Catholicism. I want people to find Jesus in their own community. There are so many doctrines we will never agree on. Let’s not spend our time on those. Rather, let’s be about showing the love of Jesus.”
I’ve talked before about Cardinal Kasper’s dismissal of the “ecumenism of return”. People who question why Kasper is a hand-picked adviser of the pope fail to recognize the congruencies in their theology (or anti-theology, as the case may be.) All one needs to do is refrain from projecting the orthodoxy they desire in a pope on a man who holds the office but has little interest in what it is meant to signify, and the mystery solves itself.
Matthew 7:15-20 comes to mind.
(Source)
“the Vicar of Christ evidently doesn’t want anything to do with that solemn nonsense known as ‘evangelization.'”
The existence of Evangelii Gaudium — the subtitle of which reads, “On the Proclamation of the Gospel in Today’s World” — makes that assertion rather difficult to hold, doesn’t it? 🙂
Not if you read it, it doesn’t.
Read it, did a video series on it. He most definitely believes in evangelization.
Articles 3 and 120 come to mind, for instance.
The problem is, what is the Holy Father’s definition of “evangelism”? If it doesn’t involve a specific intention to bring those outside the Church into the fold and to the sacraments, then what is evangelism for exactly?
I would imagine ‘evangelization’ would also include ‘re evangelizing’ within the Church.
Kevin, based on my reading of Francis — and of Evangelii Gaudium in particular — I’d propose that his understanding of evangelization is to bring people to Christ within the Church… like his predecessors, he has a heavy Christological & Christocentric vision, and similarly heavy ecclesial vision (he repeatedly speaks of the necessity of the Church to know and deepen our relationship with Jesus).
Articles 3 and 120 do mention explicitly the need to convert to the Catholic Church.
Now he could very well mean this, but the problem of the past 50 years is ambiguity – in word and in action.
This kind of solemn nonsense of ambiguity needs to stop, it’s trying to play nice and not offend anyone but all it ends up doing is weakening the cause of evangelization.
I know liberals who read EG and love it and maintain that salvation is possible without the Church.
The sound you hear is the spinning of the Early Fathers twirling like pinwheels in their graves, accompanied by my running down the road screaming with my hair on fire!
I have to wonder, given this quote, why I even bothered to convert. (I know the answer, of course, but am being a tad facetious here)
I
I ask myself the same type of question. Why should I remain Catholic? If being Catholic doesn’t matter then I will find a “church” that teaches once saved always saved so I don’t have to worry about sin because I would know for certain I will go to heaven. That would be such a much easier life. Thanks Pope Francis.
P. S. Holy Father, you won’t have to worry about evangelizing Protestants, with the rate of Catholics leaving the Church. By the way, know that Protestants don’t feel the same. They want nothing more than to pull Catholics out of the Church, but I guess that doesn’t matter either.
You are right about certain brands of Evangelicals not feeling the same way. I used to be one of them. I made up my own tracts, urging Catholics to repent and get out of the Catholic Church and would leave them in windshields of cars at Mass. I would sneak into open Catholic Churches and slip them into the hymnals.
May God forgive me for what damage I many have done!
Your words remind me very much of those of Scott Hahn. Now, pull as many back in as you can. You have a very powerful Patron Saint in this regard….St. Paul. God bless you!
Rightly said Mike.
So puzzling and discouraging.
How I long for a strong, courageous and authentic leader.
“Why would anyone want to be a Catholic?”
Exactly!! He wants them all ‘just to stay in their own communities?’ SAY WHAT??? I am starting to feel like this is all just a terrible nightmare, and we are all going to wake up and say…..’Whew’ so glad we’re back to reality.’
Sadly, Pope Francis E.C. is a strong, committed leader but he refuses to discharge the primary duty of the Papacy which is to teach and defend the Faith.
He is the ineluctable consequence of the revolutionary program – long predating Vatican Two – that was actualised at Vatican Two when an anthropocentric revolution was realised within the form of Catholicism and there is not one – NOT ONE – prelate who can be identified who possesses Tradition in strength sufficient to be applied as a force against our Inertia Into Indifferentism.
So we all pretend that what Pope Francis E.C. says and does is somehow defensible and not completely – COMPLETELY – at odds with every single Pope – EVERY SINGLE POPE -who predated 1962-1965 BCE.
The world – our ancient and permanent enemy – has an understanding of Catholicism such that when he speaks these inanities and material heresies and when he does what he does the world understands him to have changed Catholic Doctrine.
I wonder how many know that prior to 1870 – not that long ago really – there were no Protestant worship places allowed within Rome; Synagogues yes, protestant buildings no and yet Pope Francis is going to go to some pentecostal place and merely by that action advance the intensity of our Inertia Into Indifferentism.
O, and isn’t it funny how when he speaks nonsense, the defense is he was misquoted; he was taken out of context but it may not be too long before many are responding to his orthodox quotes He was misquoted; he was taken out of context for, as it now stands, he is only said to be misquoted when his words are a scandal to the pious faithful.
I’m not sure if that was a rhetorical question Keith? If not, let me know.
Just a figure of speech here, but why oh why doesn’t someone in the Vatican put a muzzle on this ‘Papa Francis’?? Or maybe at least put up a pretense of clarifying his thoughts?…..or something???…..you hear no response from anyone in the Vatican…….just the crickets.
When they want to clarify, they do.
http://www.glennbeck.com/2014/03/31/did-president-obama-lie-about-what-was-discussed-during-his-meeting-with-pope-francis/
Yes, I guess the Vatican has in the past clarified some things, like you say, when they want to. Too many of these gems have gone silent though. Way too many at this point. They seemed to have lost their tongues. It really makes one wonder……’Who is this guy sitting in the Chair of Peter?’ Seems to me I was just asking the same question not too many years ago: ‘Who is this guy sitting in the Oval Office?’ De Je Vu of nightmarish proportions.
I was so excited when he was elected. He seemed humble, not wanting all the trappings, just wanted to be with the people, to minister to God’s people with preference for the poor. Now………I’m more apprehensive by the day. How long do we wait for ‘corrections’ to be made? I think the mainstream Catholic news outlets have may have given up trying to ‘decipher’ what was meant by some of these zingers. I mean, really, how many times can you talk about the language barrier or his ‘style’ of speech, or try to ‘spin’ what he said? They just don’t report much on him anymore, and if anything, it’s all fluff. People are just running out of excuses. Probably saying to themselves the same thing I am…….’Just who is this guy sitting in the Chair of Peter?’ Jesus Have Mercy On Us!!
Hello Terri. The “humble” business and shedding all the “trappings” should have been a dead giveaway. It’s just another form of the error of sixties era iconoclasm. The Pope should be adorned, magnificently, just like a church should be. The humble routine reflects a lack of understanding of that and reveals in fact just the opposite; a mindset that the Papacy is his, and personal to him. Quite the opposite of humility.
I remember reading somewhere about a genuinely humble priest who personally felt uncomfortable with all the regal vestments but, rather than discard them for something more “humble,” he wore the finest that he could. He wanted to personally disappear while wearing them during Mass so that the faithful would see not him but Christ. He understood that it wasn’t about him, but about the his ‘office’ so to speak. He is acting in persona Christi. It was about the Holy Priesthood.
Jes JT, this thought had crossed my mind. I did appreciate not so much ‘Pomp and Circumstance’ but after a while thought that went just a tad too far for even my comfort. It crossed my mind that he seemed to be taking away from the glory of the office of the Papacy to a certain extent. The Vicar of Christ should at least give a little more majesty to the office.
LOL…..at my home parish, we finally got it right the last Holy Thursday before Pope Francis was elected. After several years of squabbling, our Pastor finally saw the light on washing the feet of 12 males instead of ‘everybody just come on down’. And then we were treated to watching as the Holy Father washed feet of women and Muslims. 🙂
Sorry I see nothing wrong with washing the feet of women, as if we female believers are somehow less worthy. Pope Francis went to a teenage jail and did this gesture. I do not see it nothing un-Godly about it. Jesus went to the lepers and people considered the fringe of society or low-class people.
There is no sense in trying to Convert Evangelicals and Pope Francis is right about that. We should be focusing on Evangelizing Catholics not to leave the Church. Catholics should find Jesus and Salvation within the Catholic Church; unfortunately, most priests are too afraid to give the SALVATION TALK. The truth is biblically all you need to be Saved is to Be Baptized and Have a Personal relationship with Christ and participate in the Sacraments to strengthen our relationship with the Lord and help us to get to Heaven. If most priests would preach this, then a lot of Catholics wouldn’t stray to Evangelical Churches. Priests should use the Bible not their interpretation or Dogma during sermons. Some priest waste their time away by putting down couples who choose contraception, or constantly bashing others, some even bashing women who choose to work outside the home because they have less children. Well I am happy Pope Francis wants Catholic Marriage classes to focus more on RESPONSIBLE PARENTHOOD not on just popping out as many babies as God gives you. POPE saw the light when the visited the Philipines. Many philipinos are Catholics who have lot’s of children, these children live in poverty, many are sold as sex slaves and girls have to prostitute themselves to support their families because daddy couldn’t put a condom on his penis and mommy couldn’t obstain from sex during ovulation. It is true, it is better for a couple to have 2-3 children, then 10 children are living lives of misery and yes being taken advantage by Westerners who use them as sexual objects. There are many white American males and British males going to Manilla and bringing themselves back young 16, 18,20 year old brides and these men are in their 40s, 50s,60s SHAME ON THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!And our Society for objectifying girls and SHAME ON PARENTS WHO SELL THEIR CHILDREN INTO PROSTITUTION. IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD KIDS AND CANNOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEM DON’T HAVE THEM.
Sad truth is Francis is right, most Catholics do not read the Bible;therefore, they leave the Church and join Protestant churches because they never realized they can have a Personal Relationship with Jesus and be saved as Catholics and they do not need to become Protestant to be eternally saved, salvation is available for all and more attainable within the Catholic Church. For 1, the Eucharist is Word of God in Flesh, in Baptism we are Born of Water, through our repentence of since and relationship in Christ Catholics are Born of Faith. Only the Catholic Church teaches one must be Born of Water and Born of Faith to enter the Kingdom of God,Pope Francis has never denied this.
Hmmm, let’s see. The first Pope was Peter. He had no fancy garments and probably a wooden walking stick when he got older. Scripture says that we are to be humble and not seek after worldly goods. So is the Pope following the Scriptures or is he following your advice to get the fancy robes, maybe a custom made crown with jewels. Maybe he should get a gold staff? Don’t forget the custom made shoes, he has to look good.
Let’s see how many rich saints were there? Hmmm. Well St. Francis gave away all his riches. Oh wait a minute, this pope took the name of Francis! I wonder why? Hmmm. He is living simply and stopping to greet the sick and the poor. If he stops to check on a wounded animal and talks to it, will all his critics says that he is going mad for talking to the animals?
So now the people who want a rich church are unhappy. Let’s see, didn’t Christ say something about finding true riches in following him and not in the things of this world?
Well, there goes that Pope Francis again, following the words of Jesus in Scripture!
Whose advice am I going to take here? Do I choose your advice or what Jesus says in Scripture? Ok, I choose Jesus again.
Peace in Christ,
Tim
Yours is the philosophy that caused them to strip the altars and churches of all adornment post Vatican II. It’s the same mindset as the early iconoclasts.
St. Francis was not an iconoclast. Although he dressed in rags, he insisted that the altar be adorned and the vessels be gold.
The humble thing to do is follow the tradition of the Church which developed over centuries and not suddenly break with that tradition in order to make a statement.
Thanks for reminding me about St. Francis insisting the Altar be as magnificent as possible. Forgot about that part.
Kevin,
In all fairness, my opinion or yours is not the final word. The real question is “What is God telling Pope Francis that he should do?” You and I are not privy to this conversation. Does God speak to the Pope? I would think so. He speaks to each of us through many different vehicles including our prayer time and the sacraments.
When someone can authoritatively tell me what God’s Will on this is, I will follow it. When you and I get to the gate of heaven, I don’t think God is going to say “Francis should have had that other chair.” Can you understand the point?
If on the other hand, God asks why we were concerned about a chair when His people were in need, I don’t think I want to have that conversation with him. Either chair is fine with me. Let’s deal with the real concerns of Christ for His people.
Peace in Christ,
Tim
I think God is telling Bergoglio to repent, resign, and court martyrdom by exposing the conciliar church for what it is. More likely is we’re being punished by THE DESTROYER pope SAINT FRANCIS OF ASSISI prophecied about on his death bed:
Shortly before he died, St. Francis of Assisi called together his followers and warned them of the coming troubles, saying:
“1. The time is fast approaching in which there will be great trials and afflictions; perplexities and dissensions, both spiritual and temporal, will abound; the charity of many will grow cold, and the malice of the wicked will increase.
“2. The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity. At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death.
“3. Then scandals will be multiplied, our Order will be divided, and many others will be entirely destroyed, because they will consent to error instead of opposing it.
“4. There will be such diversity of opinions and schisms among the people, the religious and the clergy, that, except those days were shortened, according to the words of the Gospel, even the elect would be led into error, were they not specially guided, amid such great confusion, by the immense mercy of God.
“5. Then our Rule and manner of life will be violently opposed by some, and terrible trials will come upon us. Those who are found faithful will receive the crown of life; but woe to those who, trusting solely in their Order, shall fall into tepidity, for they will not be able to support the temptations permitted for the proving of the elect.
“6. Those who preserve their fervour and adhere to virtue with love and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth. but the Lord will be the refuge of the afflicted, and will save all who trust in Him. And in order to be like their Head, [Christ] these, the elect, will act with confidence, and by their death will purchase for themselves eternal life; choosing to obey God rather than man, they will fear nothing, and they will prefer to perish rather than consent to falsehood and perfidy.
“7. Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a destroyer.”
(Except for breaking up the narrative into numbered paragraphs and adding bold print for emphasis, the prophecy is presented without any alteration, as given in the Works of the Seraphic Father St. Francis Of Assisi, Washbourne, 1882, pp. 248-250;
The humble thing to do can be found in Psalm 50. I recommend that you read the entire Psalm. Here is an excerpt:
7
“Listen, my people, I will speak;
Israel, I will testify against you;
God, your God, am I.
8
Not for your sacrifices do I rebuke you,
your burnt offerings are always before me.
9
I will not take a bullock from your house,
or he-goats from your folds.
10
For every animal of the forest is mine,
beasts by the thousands on my mountains.
11
I know every bird in the heights;
whatever moves in the wild is mine.
12
Were I hungry, I would not tell you,
for mine is the world and all that fills it.
13
Do I eat the flesh of bulls
of drink the blood of he-goats?
14
Offer praise as your sacrifice to God;
fulfill your vows to the Most High.
15
Then call on me on the day of distress;
I will rescue you, and you shall honor me.”
God is telling His people, everything already belongs to Him.
He wants us to offer praise, fulfill our vows, and call on Him in our times of distress.
He says that He will rescue us and we shall honor Him.
The Scriptures are so beautiful! Amen!
Pope Francis wants a poorer Church, well, I agree. And giving his example is of course all part of perception. But that doesn’t necessarily have to include for instance a change in the Papal Throne? He actually went to the trouble of having Vatican officials change it out so that he had an ordinary chair? It gives the impression (whether true or not) that part of this is all for show. And I am just wondering, where does that leave Benedict XVl? He of course had a different charism, but he was also a very humble man. Humility does not necessarily equal poverty. There is such a thing as preserving some of the dignity of the office, that I don’t think takes anything away from promoting austerity and humility.
Actually the part you left off is also interesting. After recounting what the Pope said, the evangelical fellow states: “(Of course Evangelicals do evangelize Catholics and Catholics do the same to us. However, that discussion we will raise another day.)” It sounds like that non-Catholic writer, while perhaps pleased in some ways with the Pope’s approach, is actually, unlike the Pope, pretty pro-evangelization. Of course, it’s hard to find an evangelical who isn’t. 🙂
When the hammer-of-heterodoxy speaks now, I’m none too surprised. There is a Hugo-Chavez tint to all his Neo-catholic dronings that make you see all the tin-pot, banana-republic dictators that have gone before him. Bergoglio’s samba-with-the-world act is getting old. Every secret society, cult, mafia, heresy, and schism that threatens the ETERNAL SOUL of a man ought to be condemned. A bishop is but a hireling, and no Shepherd, if they do anything else. There are no souls in Heaven but Catholics. One way or another they either come to embrace THE FAITH, or they refuse GOD’S MERCY through presumption (I’ve done nothing to be forgiven for since, among other things, I’ve been “saved”) or despair (my sins are so grave not even GOD can forgive me). Those sins against The Virtue of Hope are the two reasons every soul is damned. So, therefore, being a willing, mindful accessory to such rank heresy is an offense against GOD, of the highest order, that really mirrors similar Assisi-like tragedies of the past 30 years. O PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST..SAVE US!!!
DO you know why? Because Pope Francis, Me, You nor ANY soul on earth, have the power to “Convert”. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. We are only to inform. When you TRULY find our Lord in a community outside of the Catholic Church, the DESIRE through grace, for Him becomes insatiable for only Him. The desire is so great, you spend your life searching, praying, looking for Him, Only to find Him in the heart of the Catholic Church. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. This is why the Church is the last Truth left on earth. “”Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.” – We can not force souls to knock, seek or walk through the door.
It’s of course true that conversion can’t be coerced. That’s never right. But we have a duty, out of a love of souls, to *lead* them to the truth. Part of that involves telling them what we believe the truth to be.
You may recall what Christ said about those who were ashamed of Him before men…
Yes I do. And the Church in word and deed, does exactly that. Unfortunately, also to be the case as I have learned, you can lead a horse to “Water”, you can’t make him/her “drink”.
oh what Blessed breath of The Holy Spirit is Pope Francis, it’s right we could go on arguing for years, our Pope Francis is Truly walking in the footsteps of our Saviour with Humility Mercy Courage Love.
You can lead a horticulture but you can’t make her think is Dorothy Parker’s worthy rejoinder to the old saw you posted
Jesus also said go out and convert the world. Did he say only pray? I’ll answer – NO’
We provide the materials, the Holy Spirit does the converting.
Yep, we do, and the Holy Spirit does, but we have to state our case first. If the mindset is: ‘You believe your way, and I’ll believe mine, and it doesn’t really matter anyway because we all believe in Jesus and we’ll all get to heaven” what does the Holy Spirit have to work on? I’m waiting to hear…..”Well, as long as you live your lives in a good way everything will be fine.” Oh wait…….didn’t we already hear something to that effect? Hmm….seems to me….
But that’s NOT the mindset of the Catholic Church.
But it IS the mindset of the current Vicar of Christ, which is the heart of the problem; his mindset contradicts the Church’s mindset.
That is only your perspective Susan. Not the truth. Rather than running with that “perspective”, look deeper into yourself. PAX
The problem is not (at least on this evangelisation issue) within the hearer, because the hearer did not say folks outside Catholicism are fine – El Papa said that. Thus, el problemo is with what he has spoken, not with anyone’s “perspective.”
Peg, seriously, wake up.
“It is great wisdom to know how to be silent and to look at neither the remarks, nor the deeds, nor the lives of others.” St. John of the Cross
You should really try out Matthew 7:1, but haters gonna hate.
David…you should really try out 1 Cor 6:3, and Gal 1:6-9, but dissemblers gonna dissemble.
David and Peg…a few really good posts, just from the past few days…
http://marymagdalen.blogspot.com/2014/07/francis-against-orthodoxy.html
http://www.creativeminorityreport.com/2014/07/the-hermeneutic-of-contoh-i-give-up.html
http://www.creativeminorityreport.com/2014/07/putting-homo-heretics-in-charge.html
and a few of my own ‘recollections’ (fellow fed-up travelers, perhaps you can add a few more that I’ve forgotten)…
Blessed Mother shouting “you lie!” to God the Father, atheists being saved by their consciences and humanitarian works, Jesus lying to the Apostles in His demeanor to teach some sort of a lesson, telling muslims to hold fast to their korans to find hope within (!), the more than dubious choice of notorious dissenters as his chief advisors and theologians, telling dissenting orders to ignore the CDF, the upcoming co-celebration with the Lutherans of the rebellion, inviting an imam into the vatican to pray for “victory over the infidels” (us!), and on and on and on….
sorry friends, this is not thinking with the mind of the Church.
“Haters gonna hate”???
Good grief. This is a pretty good site. With respect, could we please keep the discourse just slightly above meaningless (and mindless) pop sloganism? Thanks in advance.
“an apology from my church for the hurt it has brought to their congregation.”
Pentacostalism hardly existed prior to 1903 and was until about 40 years ago a North American phenomenon. Has he found some obscure incident where a
minion of Maurice duPlessis was big meanie? Will the Pentacostal congregation in question apologize for Ernest Angely’s burlesques?
—
Such a root canal this man…
The full context is even more baffling:
In his years in and out of Rome, [Cardinal Bergoglio] became friends with the pastor of a Pentecostal Church in Rome. In time he came to learn that the church and pastor felt the power and presence of the Catholic Church, with its weighty presence, obstructing their desire to grow and be a witness. “So,” he said, “this July I will preach in his church on a Sunday and offer an apology from my church for the hurt it has brought to their congregation.”
So, hang on: the Holy Father is going to apologize (on our behalf, mind you) for the fact that a particular Pentecostal church in Rome once upon a time subjectively felt somewhat stifled by the “weighty presence” of the Roman Catholic Church? Where even to begin with this?
First of all, this seems just a little below the Holy Father’s paygrade, but at least it’s his own diocese this time round. Secondly, what was the precise, objective nature of the sin in question, of such gravity as to require an apology from the Vicar of Christ? Thirdly, isn’t obstructing the growth of schismatic sects one of the primary missions of the Church?
We’re truly in uncharted territory here, and it just keeps getting weirder and weirder.
So, is the Holy Father going to speak in tongues as evidence he’s baptized in the Holy Spirit? How else is he going to impress them?
Stephen,
Nowadays, many Pentecostals do not speak in tongues. (There is a recent article about this online at one of the mainstream news web sites.) I knew several men who were Pentecostals who did not speak in tongues. (By the way, you can also read about forms of tongues known as “prayer in the spirit” in ACTS of the Apostles.) They were very interested when I told them about Life in the Spirit Seminars at Catholic Churches. This gives the Biblical basis as well as some essential teachings of the Catholic Church about God’s Love, salvation, how we receive new life in Christ, and transformation through the power of the Holy Spirit. The Life in the Spirit Team Manual Catholic Edition has the imprimatur of the Catholic Church. Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa who has been the preacher to the Papal Household under Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict, and Pope Francis has written books on the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. He explains that it is not a “new sacrament” but an awakening of the grace that we received at our Baptism and Confirmation.
You can read his books and listen to his talks for a Biblical and Catholic understanding of this grace.
The Papal preacher is nuts He was converted to pentecostalism a long time ago and now, . he is against preaching conversion to Jew or protestant; but, then again, so are our modern Popes.
Just try and imagine any pope since Pius XII saying the same words that Our First Pope said;
But those things which God before had shewed by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Be penitent, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. (Acts 3:15-19)
ABS is not sure what it is Pope Francis believes but he is absolutely certain his Faith is different than the Faith of Pope Peter for one judges actions which are based upon Faith; Peter believed in the necessity of conversion for Salvation and Pope Francis does not.
This is not complicated.
Since 1962-1965 a new church has come into being and it is not in continuity with the church that existed up until the 1962-1965 BCE (Bestest Council Ever).
There exists an obvious rupture and one EASY way to note the rupture is by watching what the Pope does and not just read what he writes.
In Acts we read about Pope Peter and The Apostles going into synagogues and the houses of Jews and preaching Christ and conversion whereas since Pope Saint John Paul Ii, we have Popes who go to synagogues and do not preach Christ or conversion and that is no walled continuity.
No, really; the starker the rupture, the more one hear’s claims of continuity.
PFFFFT !!!
Come on…
Apologising for the putative sins of long dead Christian Catholics is a cheap stunt. Confession is about personal sin. it is not about lame apologies for the sins of others; no, that is an accusation against those who are not alive to defend themselves; it is a shameful and cowardly act
I can see why the Pope made the statement if you put it in context. If he is going to speak to Pentecostals, they will be more open to hearing what he has to say if they know that he is not trying to convert them. They already believe in the Trinity. They are missing the fullness/richness of the Catholic faith. Many Pentecostals have something that as much as 85 percent of the Catholic constituency lacks – a real openness to the Holy Spirit. We on the other hand have the Body and Blood of Christ! Emmanuel, God with Us!
I think that many of the articles (posts) on this blog have merit. However, there is an obvious tone to many of the articles.
disappointment – discontent – divisiveness
disappointment in the perceptions of the Pope
discontent in the way you perceive the Church/Vatican/Pope performing
divisiveness by the negative stance in most every article toward the Vatican and Pope.
Underneath all this is a tone of “righteous” anger. I suspect that some might say that it is “righteous concern.” However righteous concern does not attack fellow Christians and Catholics (including the Pope) or cast them in a negative light, rather it voices concern about the moral issues and clearly defines them without denigrating others. If one discerns carefully, many (not all) of the articles have an underlying message of discontent and fear.
I would simply remark:
All is well.
God is good – – – all the time.
God is in control.
The Church comes from the Eucharist, and not the Eucharist from the Church.
Amen!
There is a Star-Trek episode (maybe Steve, being a sci-fi aficionado, could help me out with which one) wherefore our heroes become aware of a meteorite about to doom a planet and dutifully go down to the inhabitants to warn them of thus when , much to their surprise, beautiful women abound, there is this poppy-like pollen that induces nothing but love and tenderness among all who breathe it in, and to top it all, the inhabitants have decided that the crew of the Enterprise would do well as gods, with Kirk as the king-god. The Bridge of The Enterprise are in dismay as to the cavalier way the landing party are responding to said mission to save inhabitants. Spock actually starts telling Jim how much he loves him (not in the yucky 2014 way either, I assure you!) and the coming disaster seems less important than the lovey-love one is feeling. Kirk finally comes to his senses and slaps Spock enough times, despite our pointy-eared friend’s outward 70×7 forgiveness, to get him angry enough to fight him, and does, until our Vulcan-second comes to his senses and less emotive ways. In my metaphor, the ship is Catholicism steered rightly by Tradition, the meteorite is the looming danger of these most dark days, the landing party are good Catholics that turned into Neo-catholics, and the world is what it has always been, THE WORLD, THE FLESH, and the paradise-shattering temptation to be like gods.
So, Tim, in all love, respect, and recognizing you as a unique and blessed child of THE MOST HIGH GOD..
How many CONFIRMATIONAL slaps is it going to take to shake that lovey-loo stuff? =+)
ROTFL.
Joseph as you are a beloved child of the Father and a learned man, I must in all candidness ask:
When are you going to read the ACTS of the Apostles, the Gospels, and especially the Epistles of Paul concerning the promise of the Holy Spirit?
Many self appointed “experts” say that the Holy Spirit doesn’t work that way any more. He was only there in the early church to get things started. I can’t find that anywhere in scripture nor does the Catholic Church teach that. Please scan the CCC for the teachings on the charisms.
I would think that the 40 million plus abortions, the thousands of children being bought and sold on the streets around the world, and the corruption of the very priesthood itself with the abomination of sexual abuse would convince you that we need the Holy Spirit today. We cannot do it on our own.
The ball is in your court my friend! Oh by the way, love they neighbor as thyself! A tall order for any of us!
May the peace of Christ descend upon you and remain forever!
Tim
Yes, indeed, if you supply your own subtext the Pope’s problematic statements get much better. The trouble is, you’re putting words in his mouth. The desire to avoid evangelizing non-Catholics is perfectly consistent with what he told his close friend, Rabbi Abraham Skorka.
“When he speaks about evangelization, the idea is to evangelize Christians or Catholics,” to reach “higher dimensions of faith” and a deepened commitment to social justice, Skorka said. “This is the idea of evangelization that Bergoglio is stressing — not to evangelize Jews. This he told me, on several opportunities.”
http://news.yahoo.com/rabbi-whose-good-friend-became-pope-060646630.html
Many Pentecostals have something that as much as 85 percent of the Catholic constituency lacks – a real openness to the Holy Spirit.
If that were within a galactic distance of the truth then they would convert immediately; pentecostals are demonstrably closed to the Holy Ghost; they are engaged in the old discredited enthusiasm as a substitute for the Church Jesus established and sent the Holy Ghost upon to teach all truth
a real openness to the Holy Spirit.
What does that even mean – really? It is so vague and contentless as to be, well meaningless.
c matt
Go to the Adoration Chapel for an hour each week and pray before the Blessed Sacrament. Read the entire ACTS of the Apostles, read the Epistles of Paul and then read all the Gospels. Ask Jesus to speak to you about what openness to the Holy Spirit is as you pray through ACTS, the Epistles and the Gospels. You will then have the beginning of what openness to the Holy Spirit is about.
Pentecostalism, whatever the stripe, is not only pure heresy, but really screams OCCULT in it’s manifestations. It has it’s origins in Tertullian’s Montanist, 2nd Century heresy (Montanus was a spiritist-turned-Catholic-then-pentecostalist-like-heretic who believed he could personally channel the HOLY GHOST. His foremost adherents were priestess/”prophets”, Priscilla and Maximillia, who did all the wacky, quasi-possessed things charismatics do today..Why do conciliar theologians continually cite heretics like Tertullian, and Origen, who died believing in universal salvationism, and very much the literal eunuch at his own hands, in belief of such nonsense? But I digress..) The late 19th century pentecostalism, as it is known today, was indeed started, in large part, by a woman “pastor”, named Phoebe Palmer. The poor misguided Catholic Youth at Duquesne University, in 1967, who first had hands laid on them, again, by a female “pastor”, immediately “slaying them in the spirit”, and no doubt qualifying them for an immediate exorcism, gave birth to today’s catholic (sic) pentecostalism. You find charismatics today, even Neo-catholic ones, who insist such spirit-slaying replaces Sacraments like Baptism, Confirmation, and even THE CHURCH entirely. Again, Jesuits can be evil (St Ignatius, Ora Pro Nobis!), but they can never be accused of ignorance. Finding stupid Jesuits is like herding cats. However, our adversary is pure intellect, and that’s where, without sufficient Faith, Hope, and Love, Jesuits may find their intellects seduced by the-father-of-all-lies. Frankie-baby knows what he’s doing..SALVE REGINA MATER MISERICORDIA, ORA PRO NOBIS! VIVO CHRISTO REY!!!
Joseph,
If you read the book “As By A New Pentecost” you will find that many of the “the poor misguided Catholic Youth at Duquesne University, in 1967, who first had hands laid on them” did not receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. Many of them were laying prostrate on the floor as they went one by one for adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. (Many say they were drawn to the chapel.) They were overwhelmed by the power of Christ in the Eucharist. The True Presence!
36 years ago, I had a priest lay hands on me for receiving the Holy Spirit. Nothing happened and I thought it was all a bunch of baloney. I still didn’t put it all together even later when I experienced the overwhelming power of God that was so dazzling I couldn’t even speak several weeks later at a prayer meeting. I thought it was just emotionalism. Eventually I struggled with my faith.
Flash forward 26 years later. I began Eucharistic Adoration on a weekly basis praying the Rosary and the Chaplet of Divine Mercy. We went to start a prayer group at our church. Lo, and behold I get directed by the parish to a guy and his wife who are bringing their prayer group over from a church that is closing. He is one of “those guys” talking about tongues and the power of God. I challenged him and then he challenged me. I prayed about it and then I began a study of Scripture and other writers who had experienced it. I followed the directions in a book and renounced all the various sins of my life that I had never truly looked at. I had confessed them, but now I felt true remorse for them.
One evening we met at this man’s house and we prayed and sang hymns of praise to God. I told him that I had spoken a few words of a prayer language. He said “let’s hear what you have.” Reluctantly, I started to speak. He laid hands on me and I was indeed filled with the Holy Spirit. From that day on I had a voracious appetite for scripture. I have many times prayed over others for healing. Twice people have come back and said they were healed as I prayed for them. I told them I could do nothing, but the power of God is always available to heal His people. I have received healing prayer many times. I have received at least two healings.
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint [him] with oil in the name of the Lord, (James 5:14)
There is much more to this.
Start with the teaching of Pope Benedict “Regina Caeli”.
Read the General Audience of Pope John Paul II September 6, 1989.
Explore Pope Paul VI and his writing on receiving a release of the Holy Spirit and Spiritual Gifts.
Hear the account of Anna Mariea Schmitt whose village was wiped out by the Nazi’s (she knew Pope John XXIII well.)
read https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/charismatic_renewal.htm
Read the ACTS of the Apostles. If God is unchanging and the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, then He is still at work in His church with the Holy Spirit.
Sure, you can find naesayers who scream heresy about the laying on of hands and the Holy Spirit, but I am going to listen to the Popes. Is not Holy Orders the laying on of hands? Is not our Confirmation the laying on of hands?
The passions are better slaves than masters. I don’t believe HOLY, HOLY, HOLY LOVE (HOLY SPIRIT) is a drive-thru where I order up some parlor trick like Herod demanding miracles from OUR LORD on Good Friday. The HOLY SPIRIT goes where HE wills leaving no trail nor giving any indication where HE is going next. I have no interest in reading the screeds of heretics and spiritualists. Sin is so woefully predictable.
I had a priest leave the altar at a daily mass I attended 20 years ago, immediately after The CONSECRATION, he went about touching people (against all canons, mind you) and touching my pregnant wife, pausing to put one hand on her 9-month-old pregnant belly My wife turned into an adultress, sodomite, cruelest of mothers, and (insert joke here) is the closest thing to a possessed person I’ve ever seen in real life. The child this priest touched in the womb struggles with many things and, like many young adults, has disdained, I pray temporarily, The Faith.
The HOLY SPIRIT does not form his SAINTS in ecstasies, but on MOUNT CARMEL. In fact, St. Teresa of Avila ( THE Doctor of Mystical Theology) has said to wish for supernatural favors is dangerous sin. The driest adoration of OUR LORD IN THE MOST BLESSED SACRAMENT Is more valuable than one with many consolations and tears. When we are infants in the Faith, St. Paul says, we are given milk and sweet things. When we are adults, warriors in THE FAITH, then are we given meat to eat, to chew, with some effort and reflection. We are tried and purified in deserts not in cool pools.
The GIFTS OF PENTECOST were given to spread THE GOSPEL, not to amuse infant minds and hearts, who lust for novelty and license. I will apologize to the pentecostalist heretics when I see them martyred, en masse, among the mohammedan countries, or among the two billion in China, with their hundreds of dialects, using their “gifts” of healing, preaching, and speaking in tongues to convert souls going to hell otherwise. Where is your courage, now? The Love of God cast out all fear. Or is HOLY LOVE just for your amusement? Some Divine Sugar to make the hard medicine of your NEW ORDER faith go down a bit easier? You are neo-montanists. The heresy is old. There is nothing new under the sun. The fathers of v-2 went grasping for anything to justify their “new springtime” because they would not do the most basic Catholic thing, that is, to beat one’s breast, and plead, MEA CULPA, MEA CULPA, MAXIMA MEA CULPA, and except ALL the responsibility for the auto-destruction of The Faith. Hell has not changed, still super-intellectual lying zombies bent on temporal and eternal rape, torture, and murder. The World still punishes you for not praising it. The Flesh is always the same. What changed? THE INSTITUTIONAL BRIDE OF CHRIST! We have every statistic of the past half-century showing as much as well.
Finally, the LAYING-ON-OF-HANDS is a function of ORDAINED MINISTRY, meaning The Sacrament of HOLY ORDERS in THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, not heretics playing apostles in a store-front church. Remember, conciliar “ecumenism” is just a pretty face put on cowardice and indifference. In other words, I don’t have sufficient love for you to have the courage to tell you THE TRUTH. So, they prefer to get along, smiling, waving, while watching others deceived temporally and die eternally.
With your experience in this spiritism, you must have been at a loss for that small percentage of such occasions you don’t quite understand.
Brother, that small percentage is what the enemy is using to kill you.
So what comes first, FAITH..or feelings?
Joseph,
If Christ in the Blessed Sacrament is killing me, if praying the Rosary is killing me, if praying for the healing of people by the laying on of hands is killing me or the people I have prayed with, the evidence just isn’t there. When I took communion to a person who was dying and they and their spouse were filled with fear, when I prayed with them the fear left them. Weeks later, I prayed the Chaplet of Divine Mercy at the bedside of this person before they passed.
My friend, I don’t know what happened with the instance that you stated and I am truly sorry for your hurt.
Before responding from the source of your hurt, read the things that the popes have written that are listed in my post.
Your comments on the ordained ministry being the only ones to lay on hands is true for sacraments, but anyone can pray for another person by the laying on of hands. If someone asked you to, would you not pray for them? If I was kneeling at the bedside of my son, would I not pray with him? Might I not put my hand on him and pray for him? Can only priests use holy water? Can you and I not make the sign of the cross with holy water on the forehead of another. Can fathers not bless their children?
Again, I am sorry for the hurt you have experienced, but I do not know for a fact that any of what you described was the result of what a priest did or did not do. Human beings have free will and often make bad decisions without the help of anyone else. Only God himself can tell us what the source of sin is in another person. I had a friend who was a devout Christian. His wife left him and he immediately began drinking and running around with less than savory women. Each of us has the source of many hurts within us.
Somehow because I have experienced these things in my life I have gone from a “unique and blessed child of the Most High God” to something else in your eyes. Should I have lied to you or kept quiet about the love of Christ that is being poured out into my life and those of many others?
I have several experiences which for me personally having been devastating including the loss of a baby and betrayal by those who called themselves Catholics and believers in Christ. I feel the pain! This is why sometimes one can find me in the Adoration Chapel two or three times a week. Jesus suffered unbelievable pain and was betrayed by those He sought to redeem. Jesus knows the source of my pain and He heals me!
Brother, if I am in a good mood when I receive sacriligiously, it is still sin. I can’t project my vision of God on THE MOST HIGH. The point your missing is the enemy can give you 99 and 44/100% of the TRUTH, but that which he keeps from you will surely kill you! A drop of arsenic, given imperceptibly to a soul, kills him in two weeks, with only an autopsy finding foul play. We all are gifts. We have an enemy trying to spoil them. When you are unsure always rest on Tradition. That is the point. Plus, the v-2ers have had their trial run. The stench of their fruits are piercing heaven. PAX CHRISTI!
Joseph,
The birth of the Church was the Day of Pentecost when Mary and the Apostles received the Holy Spirit. The Bible including the Book of ACTS is the tradition of the Church. So I stand on tradition.
If the Holy Spirit is not working just as He did from the very beginning then the words of the Consecration would not be valid.
“And so, Father, we bring you these gifts. We ask you to make them holy by the power of your Spirit, that they may become the body and blood of your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at whose command we celebrate this Eucharist.”
Therefore the Holy Spirit must act just as He did since the beginning in order for the bread and the wine to become the Body and Blood of Christ. The priest even by his ordination does not possess the power, he is merely given the right to do it by calling upon the power of the Holy Spirit to change the bread and the wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. The Holy Spirit is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are unchanging. Jesus existed for all ages just as the Father and the Holy Spirit .
Is this or is this not the tradition of the church?
So I stand on the tradition of the church that Holy Spirit has not ceased to act just as he did on the day of Pentecost. And in fact we see Him rushing upon David when he was anointed king and we see the Spirit that was upon Moses was put upon the seventy elders as well. The instances are too numerous to mention even from the Old Testament.
Yes my friend, I stand with you on the traditions of the church!
The words you quote are from the NEW ORDER liturgy. Why do you heretics insist that THE CHURCH is a reference point WHEN THEY say it is? Suffice it to say, all you claim as truth today would have been routinely dismissed as heresy and necromancy prior to v-2. I know you think your an apostle, but you’re not, with all of the gifts needed for that office, but you are mistaken, GRAVELY mistaken. VIVO CHRISTO REY!!!
Joseph,
So you are denying that the words of consecration in the New Mass are valid? Well my friend, I hope you are only going to the Latin Mass because otherwise according to you the priest cannot pronounce the consecration and have the Holy Spirit respond in the New Mass to give us the Body and Blood of Jesus. Hmmm, sounds like a new heresy to me! What spirit gave you that?
What am I? A sinner. Who am I? A beloved child of the Father. Are you not the same?
Again, your rash judgment betrays you. Jesus was in the stable, but he was still surrounded by animals and excrement. Are you suggesting we should adore the filthy beasts and their droppings as well? THIS IS MY BODY and THIS IS MY BLOOD guarantees a valid CATHOLIC MASS! I just prefer to have MY LORD surrounded by as much glory as we can afford him on earth as The Latin Mass does better than any other liturgical novelty. I’m rather tired of having to walk through your v-2 bath-houses and barns to adore THE LORD! Your using v-2 texts as a pretext. The argument you make today you would have had to make in every Anno Domini from 1960 straight back to THE KING OF KINGS! Wake up!
Hi Tim! I have read much of your sincere comments with interest here. First time on this blog for me. You might relate to some of mine also as well as others at BiblicalFalseprophet.com
The reason I say this is I believe I do know what God is doing with us and our pope right now. God never does anything without revealing it through his prophets. God bless, Donna.
Hello Donna,
Thank you for your thoughts and sharing.
I want to keep my eyes on Jesus. Scripture clearly tells us what He has done and is doing. I often see comments where people are clearly contradicting Scripture. So the best thing I know to do is to focus my gaze upon Our Lord, His Blessed Mother, and the Scriptures. May Christ richly bless you.
Tim
Wise advice! I do read a passage or 2 each evening with, before or after prayer. It is how God speaks to me: I have so much that I then see with fresh eyes. Last night it was 1 Thessalonians 2: 13- 16.
I particularly related to the comfort and peace that Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament of The Eucharist has brought you.
God bless you too! May He guide you (and each of us) on our current journey into Him.
THANK YOU Joseph for your (as usual) excellent analysis….it truly does smack of the occult. And something to take a look at….this is video of Kenneth Hagan (lead pentecostal minister in this video) and Kenneth Copeland (one of the ministers the B of R just met with at great length…he is in the red shirt/tan coat). This is what the holy father is putting on equal footing with Catholicism. It’s difficult, but watch the whole thing; if this doesn’t put a chill up your spine, nothing will. Kyrie eleison.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=kennith+copeland+laughing+in+the+holy+spirit+video&FORM=VIRE9#view=detail&mid=36ADC56CB77545C21D5F36ADC56CB77545C21D5F
Susan,
Sure you are going to find outrageous examples of Pentecostalism. And as Joseph pointed out, there is the instance of Tertullian’s later writings.
However, I know of people who drowned in water, but we all still drink it to sustain life.
Many people use gas stoves with fire to cook, but thousands of people have died in fires.
There is good fruit from the charisms of the Holy Spirit as found in scripture and in the lives of millions of people. I personally know of a lady who was healed by the prayer of a non-denominational minister who had a healing and deliverance ministry. It happened when she was a young woman. She is today a practicing Catholic who does many good works.
Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water. For a starter, read EWTN for a very basic description of the need for discernment of spirits. (See the later part of the article.)
https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/charismatic_renewal.htm
I won’t speak to defend the Pentecostal churches, however, I have met dozens of people who go to them and are truly wonderful people with a profound love for Jesus Christ.
As a youngster, when I was lost from my faith, I found a wonderful Methodist church and preacher. The people at the prayer group at that church eventually saw that I was missing something and suggested that I find a Charismatic Catholic church because the people in the charismatic Catholic churches really believed in the power of Jesus. Today one of those people who suggested I go back to the Catholic Church is a Methodist preacher and two of the girls are married to Methodist preachers. (BTW, these Methodists use the Bible and not the world view as their bible as so many protestants have adopted.)
I expect to find many Protestants in heaven because many of them are living the gospel and not being served from the “cafeteria.”
All I am saying is let’s not rush to judgment on a few limited examples. Humility is found in the lives of saints everywhere.
Tim
Tim, I’m truly not throwing anything out. I’ve attended Steubenville conferences for many years and have gotten much good fruit from them. But your posts seem to keep heavily implying that the Holy Spirit simply can’t ‘move’ in normal Catholic circles within the Sacraments and Liturgy His main milieu, where HE makes Christ present to us…jeeeze, what else do you need?). The Apostles didn’t speak in gibberish noise, they spoke in other languages that they hadn’t learned by human effort; that was the meaning of ‘tongues’ in the early Church. And even St. Paul says that an authentic tongue will have an authentic interpreter…that was the sign of the charism. I get the authentic Charismatic movement, but even one of the early movers in it has warned that it can easily go astray and has been, in some instances hijacked, into very dangerous territory (it might even have been Ralph Martin, sorry, I can’t remember).
And the video clip, faaaar from being an outlier and fringe glimpse of the pentecostal movement, features at least two of their mainstream pastors; one of which (Kenneth Copeland) just met for lunch and long discussion with the pope (same meeting where the pope is shown fist-bumping one of the other ministers…oy), after which meeting, the B of R announces he’s going to ‘preach’ in a pentecostal ‘church’ with the purpose not of fulfilling the Divine Mandate, but rather to apologize for Catholicism. And not many people even appear to be blinking an eye at this. I am in bizarro-world.
Your statement about pentecostals you know who truly love Jesus, is I think an emotional one based on sentimentalism. I would argue that their idea of Jesus is seriously flawed and in grave error (as is every one’s who follows a protestant sect). He Himself said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments”. Looking at just a few of those, we see that to follow Him we must: eat His Flesh and drink His Blood; confess to His ministers to whom He gave the power to absolve sin; Recognize Peter as His prime minister to whom He gave the keys; be baptized for the forgiveness of sin, and as entry into the New Covenant; not divorce; recognize that Christ left one Church, visible and with a hierarchy; et al. Protestants of all stripes don’t do many, most, or any of these (depending on how far out they’ve gone). Will they still go to heaven because they have ‘good will’, even though they don’t worship God in the way He Himself has prescribed, or recognize Him as He Himself has revealed? I don’t know…but I think it skirts mighty close to the sin of presumption to say, “oh sure”.
There is much that smacks of the occult and invites it in, in these movements that require huge emotional release, visual ‘signs’, and ‘feeling good’. There are other spirits that can enter that territory, and no doubt do, leading many people of ‘good will’ astray. I’ll stick with the orthodox path of the Church, and urge others in my life to do the same.
Susan,
I think that you can plainly see from my posts that the Jesus and the Eucharist are at the center of all I write.
The sacraments are indeed an important opportunity for us to receive God’s grace. But what we are looking for is not just the physical sacrament but the actual relationship that is brought about with God by that sacrament. i.e. Baptism makes us a beloved child of the Father. Reconciliation restores that relationship when it is broken by sin. etc. etc. Each sacrament is not “an event” but rather each sacrament builds our relationship with God in some way.
If I talk about Jesus, I am also talking about the Father and the Holy Spirit. One is inseparable from the others. There are three persons in one God are there not? Jesus explained to Phillip “I am in the Father and the Father is in me. So wherever one person of the Blessed Trinity is, the other persons are there as well. Our life with God is all about relationship.
God made us and He loves us. Before I learned about the relationship portion of the sacraments I thought God was just a judge making tick marks every time I messed up. Now I know he is a loving Father who loves me even when I mess up. Even more, I know He longs to scoop me up and hold me in His wonderful arms to comfort me when I fall!
The sacraments are about relationship. Unfortunately so many people see them as something we do to make God happy with us. They are so much more!
May each of us come to experience this wonderful love of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit!
Amen!
Susan,
My statement about Protestants who love Jesus is supported by Scripture. Jesus said that those who did not eat His body and drink His blood did not have life within them. He did not say that they were the occult or going to hell. Is someone in RCIA who is converting from a Protestant group going to hell until the moment they receive Holy Communion? C’mon. My wife’s cousins run a soup kitchen with their own money and their own time even though they work full time. They are doing it out of love for Christ. They believe in and worship the Trinity – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are not Catholic. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you must be Catholic to get to heaven. It does say that we must accept Christ as our Lord and Savior and that He died for our sins.. For those coming into RCIA, the church accepts their Baptism as valid if it is from certain Protestant denominations. The stipulation for the Baptism to be valid in our church is that it must say “I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” i.e. belief in the Trinity.
Susan, I sense a gentleness and kindness of spirit within you. I know that you understand these things and that you seek to treat others with love. Always remember that you are a beloved daughter of God the Father! He loves you dearly!
May the peace of Christ be with you,
Tim
“Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you must be Catholic to get to heaven.”
You can’t rely on the Bible alone for your information or interpret it randomly. You need to keep the Bible in check with the entire Tradition of the Church for the past 20 centuries by studying the Councils, Fathers, Doctors, and doctrinal writings of the Popes throughout history. There was never anything lacking in the Church or her teachings that it needed to borrow from protestant spirituality.
Hmmm. It must drive some people crazy when we sing “A Mighty Fortress is Our God” which we have done for centuries. Have you ever sung it Kevin? It was written by Martin Luther. Oh my God, all those people are in danger of going to hell for singing a Protestant song! Maybe they didn’t see his name next to it. Would that make it only a little sin?
To tell you the truth, it in fact DOES drive me a little crazy with all the Protestantizing of our Church, especially with Sacred Music. I don’t think the bringing in of all the Protestant music has enhanced the Sacred Liturgy. That BTW was a direct result of Vat ll although nowhere in the documents does it call for say for instance, ‘guitar Masses’ or worse yet, ‘Liturgical Dance’. In some instances as I have even experienced in my own Parish, in MHO they have made a complete MOCKERY out of the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass……including ‘consecrating’ illicit and ridiculous matter for the precious Body and Blood of Our Lord. To tell you the truth, I would like to hear a little Gregorian Chant which is beautiful, mystical and glorifying to Our Lord. I also have Pope Benedict that agrees with this as he was promoting Gregorian Chant during his tenure .It adds solemnity ad reverence.
Point made! They disdained all but the veneer of TRADITION to embrace every filthy thing than climbed through their “open window” (“agiornamento”). Here’s a couple doozied from your arch-heretic hero, Luther:
MARTIN LUTHER ON THE DIGNITY AND MAJESTY OF GOD
1. “I look upon God no better than a scoundrel” (ref. Weimar, Vol. 1, Pg. 487. Cf. Table Talk, No. 963).
2. “Christ committed adultery first of all with the women at the well about whom St. John tell’s us. Was not everybody about Him saying: ‘Whatever has He been doing with her?’ Secondly, with Mary Magdalen, and thirdly with the women taken in adultery whom He dismissed so lightly. Thus even, Christ who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died.” (ref. Trishreden, Weimer Edition, Vol. 2, Pg. 107. – What a great blasphemy from a man who is regarded as “great reformer”!).
3.“I have greater confidence in my wife and my pupils than I have in Christ” (ref. Table Talk, 2397b).
4. “It does not matter how Christ behaved – what He taught is all that matters” (ref. Erlangen Vol. 29, Pg. 126).
MARTIN LUTHER ON IMPORTANCE OF THE 10 COMMANDMENTS
5. “[The commandments] only purpose is to show man his impotence to do good and to teach him to despair of himself” (ref: Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), Volume III, p. 364).
6. “We must remove the Decalogue out of sight and heart” (ref. De Wette 4, 188)
7. “If we allow them – the Commandments – any influence in our conscience, they become the cloak of all evil, heresies and blasphemies” (ref. Comm. ad Galat, p.310).
8. “It is more important to guard against good works than against sin.” (ref. Trischreden, Wittenberg Edition, Vol. VI., p. 160).
MARTIN LUTHER ON THE MATERIAL NECESSITY OF GOOD WORKS
9. “Good works are bad and are sin like the rest.” (ref. Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. III, pg. 47).
10. “There is no scandal greater, more dangerous, more venomous, than a good outward life, manifested by good works and a pious mode of life. That is the grand portal, the highway that leads to damnation.” (ref. Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 128).
Volumes more, interested?
Tim, I’d like a reference if you don’t mind that Catholic hymnals throughout the world included the hymn you mentioned (known as the “battle hymn” of the reformation) for “centuries”.
I can see you’re trying to be clever, but Instead of playing a patronizing “gotcha” game, how about actually addressing what I wrote? That you arbitrarily interpret Scripture regarding salvation outside the Church?
My guess is that hymn suddenly became suitable for Catholic use circa 1970.
Kevin,
All I am doing is pointing out to you the fallacy of these sweeping general statements that you are making.
As to A Mighty Fortress is Our God, I sang it pre-Vatican II days. My parents sang it and they were cradle Catholics. They referred to some of these songs just as “the old songs.” You prove to me otherwise if you think I am wrong. A song is not necessarily Catholic or Protestant unless it makes specific remarks such as many of our Catholic songs sing of the Body of Christ specifically referring to the Eucharist or when Protestant songs make reference to some specific Protestant practice. A song that glorifies Jesus and the Trinity, glorifies Jesus and the Trinity.
I will stop responding as I do when you use Scripture as the basis for your arguments and stop making everyone who disagrees with you a sinner, a lunatic, or a heretic. If you are going to use Sacred Tradition as your argument, you must be honest and tell the whole story. i.e. The posts on receiving communion on the tongue. There are many blanket statements about why it is better. Some of them, I think are relevant. However, communion was first given by hand by Christ himself and this was part of the tradition of the early church for many years. This is verifiable. Read the writings of the early church fathers.
Second example: claims that only the Mass said in Latin is valid. Will you admit that the early church did not use Latin? Jesus used Aramaic. Some churches apparently used Greek as evidenced by the Scriptures found written in Greek. (Remember the exchange between the Pope and Netenyahu when Netenyahu said Jesus spoke Hebrew.) So at one point Sacred Tradition did not use Latin.
This is what one calls honesty rather than these continual arguments and unkind comments and calling people heretics.
Why do you think that Jesus used the story of the good Samaritan and specifically mentioned how others including a teacher of the law refused to help the injured man? He was showing the hardness of the hearts of the people he was trying to reach. Only a hated Samaritan understood what the universal law of love entailed – showing kindness to all regardless of their religious beliefs.
Unfortunately Kevin, you cannot control the conduct of others here who are doing this unkind behavior. I respect that you have appealed to me in the way that you have.
Read my posts which use Scripture as the basis. Consider them in light of the Scriptures. Don’t call what is scriptural heretical. Then, we can discuss them not by feelings, but by the teachings of the church.
The idea that the Charismatic gifts are Pentecostal and therefore heretical is not supported by the Scriptures, nor has it been supported by any Pope that I know of. Since Pope John XXIII, a saint of the church, the gifts have been valued and encouraged by every Pope. This is verifiable. Please verify it. (Read some of my posts) The sacraments have been valued and encouraged. The Mass has been valued and encouraged.
Mother Teresa told Muslims to be good Muslims. She told Hindus to be good Hindus. Will you attack her for this or will you accept that she is a saint of the church? You see, I would like some reference points where I know we either disagree or where we can find common ground.
God bless you my friend,
Tim
P.S. I will be unable to dialog with you for a few days. Please do not think I have abandoned the board. Thanks!
Bingo!
btw…the “Bingo!” comment was in reply to Kevin.
Oh yes, Ralph Martin is ever so much more reliable than Our Lady.
(sorry…the above was in response to a later comment….I’m getting all messed up on this thread. I think it’s a consequence of trying to make sense out of Tim’s pontificating and straw man ‘arguments’…it really has been illustrative to see the thorough protestantization of his thought stream. This has been a good lesson on the post VII damage. There are none so blind as those who will not see, and who are so OC about teaching others their blindness.)
Susan, did you listen to today’s second reading at Mass (7-20-2014). What an “amazing coincidence”!
Susan,
I wanted to get back to you about your question on tongues and needing an interpretation.
There is a form of tongues which is referred to as “prayer in the spirit” by Paul.
“So what is to be done? I will pray with the spirit, but I will also pray with the mind. I will sing praise with the spirit, but I will also sing praise with the mind.” (1 Cor 14:15) Later in verse 18 he says “I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you,” It might be better interpreted as I give thanks to God BY speaking in tongues more than any of you. (In other words he is describing his style of prayer and not bragging about speaking in tongues.)
Prayer in the spirit is also described in Romans 8:26-27
“In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings.
And the one who searches hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God’s will.”
(This is the form of tongues known as prayer in the Spirit and it does not need an interpretation because the believer is already praying in God’s will as led by the Holy Spirit.)
Please excuse my feeble and short explanation, but I recommend that the next time you are at Steubenville you seek out a knowledgeable priest or spiritual advisor who has knowledge of these things and is willing to share them with you by using Scripture.
One final thing that I will add:
Many people think that the purpose of a Life in the Spirit Seminar is to learn to speak in tongues. Yes, you might experience this, but it might not come till later. However, here is the verse which describes the experience of the Holy Spirit. It is Romans 8:15.
“For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received a spirit of adoption, through which we cry, “Abba, Father!”
When the Holy Spirit touches us we become aware of the astounding love that God, who is Father, has for us. Abba isn’t merely interpreted as “Father”. It is more accurately interpreted as “Daddy” or “Poppa.” It is the term of endearment that we have for a God who loves us so much that we bury ourselves in his loving arms and sigh because we have never experienced a love so great. This is the love He wishes for each of His children to know and experience.
(Some will be critical and say that this is a lack of reverence for God. Please read the Scripture. God is saying through Paul that we will cry “Abba, Father.”) These are God’s Scripture and words, not mine.
I truly pray that you will be blessed by this and that your heart will be opened to all the gifts God has for you. When in doubt, read the Word of God and what it says. Blessings to you!
Peace in Christ,
Tim
Detachment is key to authentic spirituality. You are addicted to your spiritual heroin.
EWTN is run by similar heretics. They’ve been all a gaga for this heresy for decades and now fully embrace Origen/Von Balthassar/Baron’s universal salvationism.
Don’t forget this is the network that still promotes Medjugorge demons, hid Fr. Ray Bourque (a pedophile) on their grounds for decades, and gave us the likes of Fr. Ken Roberts (pedophile), Fr. John Corapi (drug-addicted, affluent fornicator), Fr. Gobbi (spiritist fraud), Garabamdal (twisted satanic fraud), Christine Gallagher (spiritist fraud), Fr. Renee Laurentin (disobedient front man for Gallagher, et al..) Vassula Ryder (spiritist fraud), Fr. Pablo Straub ( Who, for decades, lead Medjugorge tours, despite diocese there asking none to come because the phenomena is demonic), Fr. Benedict Groelschel, who would often laud the virtues of known sodomite, Cardinal Eagan, while suggesting recently that the reason why clergy rape boys is because the boys are really irresistible teases, which lead to him being removed by the network for Fr. Andrew Apostoli, both charismatics, and many, many others who they have never apologized for. Also, Dolan gets air time there and then there’s that lispy priest who runs the Franciscans there, PLEASE! ( “Their speech gives them away..”)
For years EWTN did for JP2, what Voris does now for Frankie-baby, tell us of the sunshine and lie/ignore about the rain.
This idea that bishops are running wild while The Pope weeps uncontrollably is pure fantasy! We have a strict heirarchial church! They trump out the infernal notion of collegiality when it suits them! The NEW ORDER mass happened in a week! Benedict changed 10 words in the liturgy and we had 19 months of preparation! St. Michael prayer rescinded from the mass in a week! Assisi shenanigans no-one told us about!
We don’t have time for debating the virtues of a syncretistic, fully masonic fraud masquerading as Catholicism!
If the devil touched it, I want it out! If the devil reaches out in “dialogue”, I don’t want to share a din of salt with him, like Luther, I want to cut off his arm, shut his mouth, and humbly pray THE MOST HIGH show him so much pain that all in Heaven, minus Our Lady, are silenced and troubled that the CREATOR can rage against one of his own creatures in such a way.
In Psalm 139, David speaks of “Perfect Hatred.” I know that. Not for the flesh, but for them.
So, you’ll excuse me if I think that your serving the same nature’s excrement that raped Eve, spoiled paradise, killed Abel, killed the martyrs, defiled Kings, caused the Flood, made people think Our Queen was a whore and threatened Her in Revelation, savaged OUR LORD, put the seven daggers in The Immaculate Heart, raised the gnostics (freemasonry is the most condemned sin in the history of the Church, with no less than 13 encyclicals written against it. Where is it mentioned in Schonborn’s/JP2 catechism?) mohammedans, schismatics, heretics, occultists, fascists, communists, made sodomy compassion, and abortion the black sacrament of all that offends GOD!
Your a cheerleader in a short skirt shouting, “We got the spirit, yeah, yeah…”
Pentecostalism isn’t a movement, it’s a heresy! Wake up, brother! Being anyone’s bitch is unbecoming for any man, much less that thing, of which there is none lower in creation! In Nomine Patri, et Filio, ET SPIRITU SANCTU!!!
Joseph,
The remarks of the early persecutors of the Christians were “Look at these Christians, see how they love one another.” Where is this in your post?
You speak of hatred, you speak of how EWTN is full of heretics. You say the Popes including Pope John Paul II who is a saint do not know what they are talking about. Do you reject the teachings of Paul VI on Birth Control and Abortion? Do you reject their teachings on the theology of the body? Where will you pick and choose next? Be very careful because the evil one’s favorite ploy is to convince people that all the authority of the church is wrong and that they themselves are the judge.
I submit myself to the authority of a man who has been a priest for 60 years. When he does not know the answer, he humbly admits it and goes to his bishop. I submit myself to the full authority of Jesus Christ and His church. Do your posts reflect the same?
You say the Holy Spirit must do this and that. Are you now able to say what the Holy Spirit can and cannot do? I give examples from scripture. You give examples from your own judgment and intellect. Which is greater?
My friend, you and I are both beloved sons of God the Father, created in His image and likeness. He loves each of us equally. Are we not commanded by Jesus to love one another? His words were “love each other as I have loved you.” Mother Teresa said that it is not possible to love other people while we are busy judging them. I believe her to be a saint. Do you find fault with her too?
Please consider spending some time at daily Mass or once or twice a week in an Adoration Chapel with the Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament. Soften your heart! God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit love you dearly!
May the peace of Christ be with you.
Tim
So, I’m a lover of contraception and abortion, now. There must be such an arrogant high associated with your necromancy! With regards to the minute merits of your question, Paul VI could not teach error, like any Pope, because the HOLY SPIRIT wouldn’t let him. The v-2ers think the pope is God. No, as Benedict said, and many other saintly pontiffs before him, the CHARISM OF INFALLIBILTY is MINIMIST. All it guarantees as Pope, Ex-Cathedra, he can never EVER teach error. Can he write and muse publicly, and privately, about error? Yep! Can he fornicate, sodomize, father children, make teenage sons Cardinals? Yep! Can he be bought? Yep! All happened before and is likely happening now! You didn’t learn Catholicism, you learned a masonic fraud! I believed them, too! They lied to us, disdained us, and are now actively persecuting the remnant! Wake up, brother! The hour is late. (I suggest you read ALICE VON HILDREBRAND on the TOB outrage and fathom how you would explain to a child the option of anal sex and sex toys, which TOB allows for. MERCY. LORD, MERCY! Don’t you see what they’ve done!)
I don’t see anger anywhere in any of these posts. And I don’t see a disrespect for the Holy Father either. What I see is apprehension. I see people that (like myself) are wanting desperately to understand Pope Francis. He is very difficult to understand. He says very contradictory statements about the faith almost every other day. Is it a language barrier? If so, someone should be able to clarify, someone from the Vatican, but I don’t see many clarifications. This is not a one time deal with these statements that he’s coming out with, it’s a cumulative thing. Could be that he just doesn’t finish his thoughts? Doesn’t expound on these things? Is it the reporters interviewing him that are having a problem with translating? Is it a language barrier? Whatever it is, these little quips from him are causing mass confusion among the faithful. I don’t see how that is a good thing. And I don’t see how trying to sort it out and understand him is uncharitable. The last thing we need after the fallout from Vat ll over the last 50 years or so is confusion. When he told the young people at the end of World Youth day to go back home to their Parishes and Communities and ‘Cause a Mess’ I would think he wouldn’t mean this. But at this point that’s what we’ve got….a MESS.
Terri,
There is a way out of the confusion.
We take our eyes off of man and put them on Jesus. Jesus by His Word and the Blessed Sacrament will never lead us wrong. Read and follow scripture, attend Mass and Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament often. The Rosary is also very powerful. Our Blessed Mother will never lead us astray. It is good not just to say the Rosary, but to spend a bit of time contemplating it – literally praying it as we say it.
May the peace of Christ which passes all understanding be with you,
Tim
Thank you for the reminder. I do need to remember (which I have to remind myself daily with little ejaculatory prayers throughout the day) that Jesus is in fact in control…..He has our back. I must admit that many years back I myself bought in to the entire ‘relativism’ that was going on after Vat ll. Had a few different Pastors that were staunch relativists. Brought me nothing but pain, heartache and spiritual desolation. And yes, I do PRAY the Rosary now pretty much daily. Not only SAY the Rosary but meditating on it as I go…..sometimes it takes me 45 min to an hour for only 5 decades. Praying the Rosary is what saved me ………LITERALLY, and opened my eyes to the truth of the Church of Christ, brought me back to solid ground. So I can say in all reality that the Blessed Mother roped me in with her oh so powerful Rosary and opened my eyes. I’m a staunch advocate. I guess because of my past, I am overly hyper vigilant about modernist clergy. Been there, done that, dead end road, and yes, I guess I get angry, not at the priests who led me down that road, they are just mislead themselves, but at the whole concept of modernism within the Church. I pray for them daily, but at the same time, I will fight to the death against it. Call it modernism, call it progressive theology or whatever you like, it’s lethal. Pope Benedict XVl hit the nail on the head about Modernism being the scourge of our day. It’s just plain evil.
Thanks ruralcatholic, I do watch him, but don’t make every episode. Guess I’ve missed the ones on Pope Francis. And you are correct, the only weapon at our disposal at this point is prayer. (and sacrifice) Watch and Pray is my mantra, but sometimes the ‘watching’ gets a little unnerving.
Taking your eyes off the Pope is no solution for he is the Vicar of Christ and the world thinks that when he speaks he is teaching infallibly.
No, one must keep their eyes on him and listen to him and refute his errors and radical heterodox praxis.
Taking your eyes off what other men and women are doing is a solution. If a priest or bishop is leading a life of sin, should we follow them? Remember the counsel that Jesus gave the people about fulfilling all that the Pharisees prescribed, but not to behave like them. Jesus said “follow me”. He did not say follow the Pope, the bishops, or the guy down the street. He did talk about the need for obedience. When it comes to what Jesus said in Scripture and what you are giving as your opinion. I am going to follow Jesus and Scripture.
I’m late in getting back to this one but…..I do believe we have an OBLIGATION to refute heresies. It’s not really one of those…..’If you want to you can…….we are OBLIGATED. We must do this in all CHARITY, but if we sit back and allow a heresy to fester without speaking out against such, we are culpable. So yes, we have to ‘keep our eye on the ball’ so to speak, and know what’s happening with our hierarchy, and I do believe now more than ever before. Sitting back and letting the world go by is no longer an option in our Church.
Terri, I agree with you. Michael Voris is a big fan of Pope Francis and is able (so far) to explain and develop what Pope Francis means with his various remarks. If you don’t watch Church Militant TV, this might be a source of help for you. I’m basically just going about my business and not paying attention to what is coming out of Rome until it affects me directly. There’s nothing we can do anyway, so we’re better off trusting God and ‘lean not unto thine own understanding.” All can pray is that Pope Francis isn’t a modernist!
A private conversation is “leaked” by an evangelical who is addressing his fellow heretics, who, must be worried about The Pope and the possible effects on his “leader”.
The guy is clearly sugarcoating the event for the “sake” of his fellow evangelicals.
Anyway, I will worry when I hear from the Pope, in a Audience in Rome: “Catholics: don’t be interested in convert the protestant christians”. Until then, all this kind of stuff is just hearsay.
When you have to assume the other guy’s always a filthy liar…there’s a problem.
Two of the Pope’s friends in Argentina have said the same thing as what Mr. Stiller reported. All of them lying? Whatever helps you sleep at night:
1. “When he speaks about evangelization, the idea is to evangelize Christians or Catholics,”to reach “higher dimensions of faith” and a deepened commitment to social justice, Skorka said. “This is the idea of evangelization that Bergoglio is stressing — not to evangelize Jews. This he told me, on several opportunities.”
http://news.yahoo.com/rabbi-whose-good-friend-became-pope-060646630.html
2. “Bp Venables added that in a conversation with Cardinal Bergoglio, now Pope Francis, the latter made it clear that he values the place of Anglicans in the Church universal.
‘He called me to have breakfast with him one morning and told me very clearly that the Ordinariate was quite unnecessary and that the Church needs us as Anglicans.'”
http://www.anglicannews.org/news/2013/03/the-church-universal-needs-anglicans-pope-francis.aspx
You certainly have a point Juan. It’s one of my thoughts as well. Who in the world would trust anyone putting out any ‘official’ information in this day and age. I’ve learned to take ANYTHING the media says with a huge grain of salt How do we really know how many enemies Pope Francis has around him? If it’s not common knowledge by now, it should be that the Vatican is a cesspool of political back stabbing. You could almost compare it to Washington.. We have to ‘watch and pray.’
Why be Catholic indeed!
Why be anything? Either the Church is true or it isn’t. If the churchmen couldn’t get it right by now, maybe it is time to hang it up because the contradictions just keep coming.
Lorra, the Church is true…that’s the point. The men leading Her right now are a punishment on the Body…the modernism coming from the highest levels is a scandal and a scourge, but they can NEVER change the Divine Law, the Natural Law, or the words and teachings of Christ, anymore than the state can change the definition and ontological meaning of marriage.
Don’t leave Christ’s Church. She is who He said She is, and She is necessary for salvation…(no matter what any prelate says to the contrary).
Thank you Susan. Exactly…….this is the point. THE CHURCH IS TRUTH. We are taught to abide by the laws of the Church no matter what any prelate says or dictates to the contrary. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the only time we are allowed to disobey is when we are told to go against the truth of Holy Mother Church. Then we DISOBEY.
Terri,
We believe that the Catholic Church when properly disposed has the fullness of truth. The truth however is not a thing. The truth is a person. Jesus told us “I AM the way, the truth, and the life…
Much of what the church teaches comes from Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition is passed down by Christ through the Apostles. Many times people mix up what is Sacred Tradition with what has become a ritual. They cling to the old ways much as immigrants to our country may cling to their native language and never learn English.
Again, I think it is very important to remember that the church is composed of people and people make mistakes. However, Jesus, the person who is both God and man, is the Truth. Therefore one can only begin to legitimately question the teachings of the church when it can be shown scripturally that they conflict with the teachings of Christ. The very people who reject Vatican II are often using the very arguments that have caused the problems in the church.
Let me give you an example of why a person may believe that they can use birth control. I already have two children. I don’t make much money. God wants me to be responsible. He does not want me to struggle and not be able to feed my family or put a house over their heads.
Many would say this seems valid in todays world.
However, here is how we are called to look at it through the eyes of God.
God says be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. He said this at creation and to Noah after the flood. Therefore as the church teaches we are to be fruitful and open to life. So, the steps are:
1. God’s command and the teaching of the church is to be open to children.
2. I work back from this point to align my views to follow this teaching.
3. To do this, I must trust not in myself, but in the providence of God to provide for my needs.
4. I must also accept God’s Word in Scripture that “children are a gift of the Lord.”
As you can see this takes trust not in ourselves but in the promises of God.
This does not cover all cases, but it is a start. This method is valid for finding a way to conform to the teachings of the church.
Does this make sense?
Yes, it makes sense. In a world where the homosexual is convinced that ‘God made me this way, so I should be able to engage in a cohabitational living arrangement with my same sex partner, because God makes no mistakes, and I have every right to be in full communion with the Church and receive the sacraments regularly, it would not meet adherence to Scripture for the Church to say: ‘We need to look at the order of Creation, and to possibly ‘reinterpret’ natural law because as it is interpreted now, it is completely incomprehensible’, therefore we would welcome and invite these ‘irregular’ unions to regularly receive the sacraments. Seems to me it would be along the lines of the example you gave for the life issue.
BRAVO!!!
Bravo indeed Terri!
Popes and apologizing:
– See more at: http://the-american-catholic.com/2014/07/12/pope-francis-pentecostals-and-art-deco/#comment-248816
“I will stop responding as I do when you use Scripture as the basis for your arguments and stop making everyone who disagrees with you a sinner, a lunatic, or a heretic. If you are going to use Sacred Tradition as your argument, you must be honest and tell the whole story. i.e. The posts on receiving communion on the tongue. There are many blanket statements about why it is better. Some of them, I think are relevant. However, communion was first given by hand by Christ himself and this was part of the tradition of the early church for many years. This is verifiable. Read the writings of the early church fathers.”
I think you have me confused with someone else. I never mentioned anything about Communion on the tongue or Latin. I also never implied that anyone was a lunatic. I simply pointed out that you were using the idea that Scripture is not explicit about the Catholic Church being necessary for salvation as a misuse of Scripture because you are leaving out the corresponding infallible teachings of the Church such as Unam Sanctam.
Kevin,
I was commenting about the replies in general that are received on this board to topics of great interest to Catholics in general. Please read the various postings which discuss those issues and you will understand what I am saying.
Here is what I use as the basis of who can be saved according to the Catholic Church teachings:
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church
Take a look at some of the tracts available also. This will say it much better than I ever can. Catholic.com is run by apologists of the Catholic Church who I believe to be in good standing with the church. I am giving you the best information that I know. I prefer that you read them rather than listen to me if you are truly open to the teachings of the Pope and the church.
This taken from the page I reference at Catholic.com and there is much more.
“The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as “the universal sacrament of salvation” (CCC 774–776), and states: “The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men” (CCC 780).
Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.
Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned.
The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).
Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.
These can be saved by what later came to be known as “baptism of blood” or ” baptism of desire” (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism). ”
Again, I prefer that you get the information which will form your understanding of those teachings by people who are well versed to do so.
I would suggest you go there before you come here as it is IMO a much better explanation in the teachings of the church and it gives all its references.
Another source of good information about the church and its teaching is a man known as Dr. Ralph Martin. His books are hard to read but his talks are wonderful. He was named by Pope Benedict XVI as a Consultor to the Pontifical Council for the New Evangelization and was also appointed as a “peritus” to the Synod on the New Evangelization in October of 2012.
Another site that I think is excellent is:
http://www.catholicbible101.com/
I recommend this because I like the way they say things and the clean easy language.
I hope this is helpful.
Tim
Tim,
I am well aware of nuances of “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” and I never said I believed that no non-Catholics can be saved. The Church teaches that there CAN be exceptions, but we don’t know much more than that. My point was that as a Catholic you can’t try to refer to the Bible alone and that it seems as though you’re using principles of Sola Scriptura to insinuate that there’s absolutely no problem being outside the Church. To me, this is what you seemed to be implying when you stated:
“Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you must be Catholic to get to heaven. It does say that we must accept Christ as our Lord and Savior and that He died for our sins..”
That struck me as an irresponsible statement and so I called you on it. That’s all.
Kevin,
Please show me in the Bible where it says that one must be a Catholic to get to heaven. Did you read the very complicated explanation on how one is saved if they are not a Catholic? I could never have explained that to you. I simply pointed out something that is a fact. There is nothing in the Bible that says that you must be a Catholic to get to heaven. Also, if you read the quote I put from the apologists my statement is not on either side of the extremes whereas someone who says that you must be a Catholic to get to heaven is. The doctors of the church have not said that and neither did all those quoted by the apologist. I was merely stating what I did in order to counter the extreme position taken by many here. In no way did I state that it was the supposed doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura has been disproven by countless Catholic apologists.
Can you dispute that the Bible does not say anywhere that you must be a Catholic to get to heaven? I think that the answer is: No
Can you show me where a doctor of the church or a pope has said that only Catholics can get to heaven? I think that the answer is: No
Now I am sure someone here may try to quote a prophecy from the 1600’s or somewhere around there that condemns all non-Catholics to hell, but can they prove that it is in fact from God? I think that the answer is: No
The last I heard only one person determines who gets into heaven: Jesus.
Right out of the Apostles creed – from thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead.
Amen!
“Can you show me where a doctor of the church or a pope has said that only Catholics can get to heaven? I think that the answer is: No”
Sure:
CANTANTE DOMINO (Pope Eugene IV, issued 1442)
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot have a share in eternal happiness; but that they will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the Devil and his Angels (Matt 25: 41), unless they unite themselves to the Church before their death; and that so precious is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those who abide in it can benefit from the Church’s Sacraments for their salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militancy. No one, no matter how much he has given in alms and even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”
UNAM SANCTAM (Pope Boniface VIII, issued in 1302)
“Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff” (Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, et pronuntiamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis).
Your question “where is it in the Bible?” is a misleading way of phrasing the question. Obviously not everything taught by the Church is written explicitly in the Bible. That’s why we have the Magisterium. The Bible must be interpreted in light of Magisterial teachings like Unam Sanctam and Cantante Domino.
“Can you show me where a doctor of the church or a pope has said that only Catholics can get to heaven? I think that the answer is: No”
Sure:
CANTANTE DOMINO (Pope Eugene IV, issued 1442)
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot have a share in eternal happiness; but that they will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the Devil and his Angels (Matt 25: 41), unless they unite themselves to the Church before their death; and that so precious is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those who abide in it can benefit from the Church’s Sacraments for their salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militancy. No one, no matter how much he has given in alms and even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”
UNAM SANCTAM (Pope Boniface VIII, issued in 1302)
“Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff” (Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, et pronuntiamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis).
Your question “where is it in the Bible?” is a misleading way of phrasing the question. Obviously not everything taught by the Church is written explicitly in the Bible. That’s why we have the Magisterium. The Bible must be interpreted in light of Magisterial teachings like Unam Sanctam and Cantante Domino.
Kevin,
I told you that it did not say anywhere in the Bible that non-Catholics cannot get to heaven. You became upset thinking that I was being evasive. I really wanted you to see what Scripture says about who is in heaven. Surely you would look to Sacred Scripture for the answer. Here it is:
2 Kings 2:11 (Elijah is taken up to heaven)
As they walked on still conversing, a fiery chariot and fiery horses came between the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind,
Luke 16:19-26 (Jesus in his parable tells us that Abraham – father of the Jewish people, is in heaven)
When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, and from the netherworld,* where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’ Abraham replied, ‘My child, remember that you received what was good during your lifetime while Lazarus likewise received what was bad; but now he is comforted here, whereas you are tormented. Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from our side to yours or from your side to ours.’
Matthew 17:1-6 (Elijah who was taken up to heaven and Moses are in Communion with Jesus. When we receive the Body and Blood of Christ we are in Comm-union (Communion) with Him and the whole church.)
“The Transfiguration of Jesus.*
After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun and his clothes became white as light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with him. Then Peter said to Jesus in reply, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents* here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud cast a shadow over them, then from the cloud came a voice that said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.” When the disciples heard this, they fell prostrate and were very much afraid.
Luke 23:36-43 (The thief on the Cross is told by Jesus that he will be with Him in Paradise this day.)
“The Crucifixion”
Even the soldiers jeered at him. As they approached to offer him wine they called out, “If you are King of the Jews, save yourself.” 38Above him there was an inscription that read, “This is the King of the Jews.” 39* Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.” 40The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? 41And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Kevin, in closing I want to give you the words of Jesus to the Sadducees in Mark, Chapter 24:
Jesus said to them, “Are you not misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God? (Mark 12:24)
St. Jerome (Doctor of the Church) tells us that “Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ.“
Kevin, may I suggest that you get from Amazon “My Daily Catholic Bible: 20-Minute Daily Readings (Revised New American Bible)”. If you are unable to obtain it, please give me your address and I will see about sending you one.
By 20 minutes of Scripture reading daily, you will read the whole Bible in one year. So each year you simply begin again and read it over. In this way, you will be filled with the Word of God and His salvation and His love for His people. You will find the Holy Spirit stirring anew in your life as you read the Word of God.
Remember that Jesus is called “The Word” and “The Word Made Flesh” and that Sacred Scripture is called “The Word.” Jesus is living in His Scripture and all Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Kevin, it is good to talk with you again. I was on vacation and I don’t do email and I don’t post while on vacation.
My brother, may the peace of Christ be with you.
Tim
The distinction is in the immense difference between GOD acting in the “ORDINARY” and “EXTRAORDINARY”. The MOST HIGH’s preference is for the former.
You have become accustomed to your curiosity being piqued and your spiritist sweet-tooth being sated.
How was JESUS initiated into HIS PUBLIC LIFE? It was during 40 days of desert deprivation and not in the glory of THE TRANSFIGURATION. What was the first miracle? THE WEDDING AT CANA! Which was no accident as we will see shortly.
THE MOST HOLY TRINITY could have redeemed us in any of a number of ways THEY chose. THE MOST HIGH’s answer was THE GROOM suffering for HIS Spouse. The Heavens could have shook, trillions of Seraphim singing an angelic chorus of, “Here Comes The Bride…”, or billions of demons could have dangled from vengeful nooses above each city (my preference, but I digress..). THE MOST HIGH chose suffering to show us, viscerally, what sin does to GOD, us, our relationship with HIM, and each other. Elijah and Abraham belonged to THE COVENANT as it was understood at that time. They were saved INSIDE The Church. No soul is saved outside the Catholic Church. Now, God may save “extraordinarily”, infusing at death all knowledge required to choose GOD’s BRIDE, but no one gets in, without being part of The Bride which is The Church. They cannot “climb over the gate”, be admitted without a “wedding garment”, and it matters not “if they raise the dead, exorcise demons, heal, or preach in HIS name.” HE will still say to them, “Depart ye, I never knew you..” ‘Know” here is the marital “know”. The Passion is really an acting out of Solomon’s Song-of-Songs. Think of the marital embrace. OUR LORD is the good lover not consummating (“It is consummated..”) the marriage until HIS Bride had been completely sanctified, in the throes of Passion, for three hours! Those of us remembering, or experiencing, newly married bliss, know those expectations and motivations. In that time, The Bride was showered with all gifts imagined and unimagined.
With your heretical pentecostalism, you would blaspheme OUR LORD as a spiritual lothario, not THE FAITHFUL SPOUSE!
You do this because pentecostalism seeks a surreptitious third covenant based on “the spirit”, that eliminates the need for doctrine, dogma, and discipline in favor of ‘angel of light” parlor tricks, dressed up as “ecumenism.” It must be said that when THE LORD and/or OUR LADY do show up, EXTRAORDINARILY, the message is never, “Great job! Heaven is so happy!” Miracles merely emphasize the warnings given. Only Mount CARMEL is preached. There are no sweet, sublime carmel crèmes dispersed, I assure you. Another problem with this pentecostalist heresy is it’s temptation to turn THE HOLY GHOST into “sophia”, as Hahn, and other charismatics, wrongly do. Think! THE MOST HIGH seeks The Marital Embrace, and the Children that come from that union, as the paradigm to understand HIM. If THE HOLY SPIRIT is blasphemed as “sophia”, HE cannot be THE SPOUSE of The BLESSED VIRGIN MARY, in fact, it suggests another blasphemy, that fits very much with the spirit of the day.
Tradition is the refuge. New age heretics seek aliens from the cosmos to give them “new truths for their “new order”. St. Thomas Aquinas says The Truth is not found in seeking foreign bodies in the heavens, but plumbing the depths of the ocean and great mystery of what is already known. Today, modernist man seeks to “boldly go where no man has gone before” (when, in fact, the heresies are rather old) instead of understanding the depths of the oceans of wisdom so easily accessible, wonderfully mysterious., but woefully ignored.
It’s time, in all humility, to be an ordinary Joe! =+)
SALVE REGINA, MATER MISERICORDIA, OORA PRO NOBIS! VIVO CHRISTO REY!!!
Joseph said,
“The distinction is in the immense difference between GOD acting in the “ORDINARY” and “EXTRAORDINARY”. The MOST HIGH’s preference is for the former.”
Joseph, you don’t get to speak for God. Scripture is full of God acting in both the ordinary and extraordinary.
God becomes flesh – extraordinary
God putting the Spirit that was on Moses on the 70 elders so that they prophesy – extraordinary
The miracles of the Eucharist – see the many documented miracles -extraordinary
The apparitions of Mary – extraordinary
The miracles of Mary through Lourdes – extraordinary
The miracles that are confirmed by the church to verify sainthood eligibility – extraordinary
The changing of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist – extraordinary
The healings of Jesus throughout the New Testament – extraordinary
The healings through the Apostles listed in the New Testament – extraordinary
The miracle at Lepanto – extraordinary
The parting of the Red Sea – extraordinary
I can name thousands of extraordinary works of God.
Now go read Scripture, pray, and spend some time in front of the Blessed Sacrament and maybe we will see the miracle when Christ changes your heart to see the power of God rather than the puny power of man.
May God bless you Joseph.
Your brother in Christ,
Tim
Scientists suggests about 14 billion people have been born. I think if we look at the totality of each of their lives we would see an ordinary or natural life, void entirely of any Heaven-sent extraordinary or supernatural favors.
It is the same with the Saints. Even in the lives of OUR LORD and certainly OUR LADY (of which SHE is greater than all creation exponentially multiplied in eternity, but still merely a grain of sand compared to the universe that is THE MOST HOLY TRINITY), ordinary and natural were the overwhelming norm. What did OUR LORD do notably the first 30 years of HIS LIFE? Over 90% of HIS LIFE was like anyone else. perhaps even less, young men were marrying and starting families. JESUS OF NAZARETH was but a carpenter, however highly skilled, toiling a way in HIS MOTHER’S HOUSE it seemed (Of course, HE was reserving THE BEST PART FOR HIMSELF ALONE. Next time you are tempted to even think about casting away OUR LADY, remember THE LORD preferred Her Company to anyone else’s for 92% of HIS Earthly Journey!).
In pagan mythologies, child prodigies are alleged to do divine things. Scripture says the antichrist will manifest himself similarly, in a proud aping of GOD, in the manner of Martin and other charismatics. There are no miracles of Our Lady in Scripture, though She, ALONE, is THE MASTERWORK OF GOD’S HANDS, OF WHICH GOD COULD NOT MAKE ONE GREATER! “For HE has regarded THE HUMILITY of HIS Hand-maiden (this is THE FATHER enraptured with the HUMILITY of HIS Handmaiden. She is the HOLY SPIRIT’s SPOUSE and the MATER DEI, but ONLY Handmaiden to THE FATHER! Deliberate on this! Only one other place does THE FATHER, apart from THE HOLY TRINITY, manifest HIS THOUGHTS, “THIS IS MY SON, LISTEN TO HIM!”).
Humility is what you are missing. You count the charismatics as equal to OUR LORD and greater than OUR LADY. You disdain the cross and see THE MOST HOLY TRINITY as a candy shop open only to sate your taste for supernatural favors. Well, THE MOST HIGH is not goaded, or tempted, into providing the 21st Century equivalent of table-knockings or “show-us-a-sign” séances.
There is, however, another entity willing to meet that demand.
Vainglory is the most difficult vice to be saved with. It is difficult because, unlike all other sins, it FEELS like your serving GOD, when you are only projecting and serving your image of Him. So, holy and pious things feed your sense of righteousness, which reinforces your vainglory. The Saints say it’s almost impossible to be saved with this affliction.
St. John Vianney loved adoring OUR LORD in THE MOST BLESSED SACRAMENT. The Cure’-of-Ars stopped in a Church, on his way to preach in a town, that had EXPOSITION the entire day. His intention was to adore for a couple hours, continue the last 4 hours of his journey, preach and hear confessions to Midnight, as was his custom, all this knowing that from 1-5 a.m. the devil, as he did almost every night, would show up and pummel this 4-foot-10 Saint, almost unrecognizably, whereupon, he would sleep for an hour, be healed of visible wounds, but still be sore, and continue doing The Will of GOD. But, what St. John Vianney did was stay at EXPOSITION till MIdnight! Later, that night, the devil did not come, and The Holy Saint fell ill-at-ease. The LORD showed him that it was not necessary for the devil to visit him that night for he had succeeded at achieving his ends that day. St John Vianney should have continued on his journey. There were many confessions to be heard in the town he did not travel to and many hearts ready to hear his voice there, but did not. The devil is no fool. If he cannot get you to do evil, he gets you to do the LESS righteous thing according to your own tastes and not GOD’s WILL. St. John had been deceived. The devil told a mystic that if there had ever been as little as 4 men like St. John Vianney alive at once, at any one time, his kingdom on earth would have been shattered.
In the history of The Church there have been great spiritual frauds who fooled even Popes because they are infallible, only when speaking EX-CATHEDRA, not indefectible with every breath. Do the research. Some religious have contracted with the enemy, formally or informally, to appear saintly to gain APPROVAL. They, too, disdained Humility and The Cross. Every authentic movement of GOD is always meant with THE WORLD’s hatred and persecution. No lollipops and cotton-candy, I’m afraid. There is another vendor who provides those.
GOD is GREAT, and we are not. St. John Vianney is a saint, and we are not. The Blessed VIRGIN MARY is the Most Beloved of GOD, and we are not. If we can agree to just these three things, it may still go well with us after all.
SAINT MICHAEL, THE ARCH-ANGEL…BE OUR PROTECTION AGAINST THE WICKEDNESS AND SNARES…we HUMBLY pray…
VIVO CHRISTO REY!!!
Joseph,
There are four things that we can agree on.
1. I need more humility and I am a sinner.
2. We are both beloved children of God the Father.
3. Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins so that we could be restored to God.
4. Jesus Christ is truly present in the Blessed Sacrament.
I will not ask for anything more.
I have tarried far too long on the board. Something that I have been praying about for five years came to me today while praying in the chapel. I must pray more so that I can follow God’s Will and not my own.
Godspeed my friend.
Your brother in Christ,
Tim
Brother, please don’t ever confuse a Holy Anger with sin, and it’s author, the king of excrement, and a sincere prayer for the sinner to escape the various soft-kill venoms of every abominations’ author. PAX CHRISTI!!
🙂 No, you probably didn’t mention anything about Latin or ‘Communion on the Tongue’ ………I did:) I happen to think Communion on the Tongue is a more reverent way to receive the precious body of Our Lord Jesus, among many other verifiable reasons. Gestures of the body will help to reinforce attitudes which I think is a proven fact, and I think this may be part of the reason there are so many today in our Church that don’t believe in the ‘Real Presence’. When they yanked out the Communion Rails (which I don’t believe was required after Vat ll) and had everyone stick out their hand for Communion it naturally downplays what you are actually doing. This is just my opinion, and not really a topic for this discussion but it’s all part and parcel of the effects of Vat ll and the mass exodus following, I do believe…..among many other liturgical changes that didn’t have to be but I won’t expound on here. I do think it was in the ‘SPIRIT’ of Vat ll.
Terri,
Sorry, I think I got lost as to who was replying to whom. When I denied having said anything about those topics, I was just trying to keep things from getting off topic, but obviously I agree with all your sentiments completely.
🙂 Understandable…..this discussion is one that is a hot topic with tons of responses….hard to keep up with to be sure! Continue on…….:)
Martin is another EWTN charismatic. One of the Duquesne students possessed of the spirit-slayers. You know better. Why will you not cite 1960 years of Tradition, and only the well-paid propagandists of the professional Neo-catholic establishment, who need the blessings of the conciliar church to make a living. When they give back their 30 silver pieces I’ll listen to them. Meanwhile, since you necromancers fancy yourselves prophets, see what THE HOLY SPIRIT REALLY HAS TO SAY ABOUT THE CONCILLIAR CHURCH TO REAL SAINTS AND PROPHETS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uyj3YCIdTns&feature=player_detailpage (If you want the crash course of AUTHENTIC CATHOLIC PROPHECY go to THE QUEEN OF ALL PROPHETS and read HER WORDS as OUR LADY OF GOOD COUNSEL in Ecuador 400 years ago, OUR LADY OF LASALETTE in France 160 years ago, OUR LADY OF FATIMA in Portugal 100 years ago, and OUR LADY OF AKITA in Japan 40 years ago. All APPROVED apparitions worthy of belief and not at all the melodramatic demon drivel you’re used to. REPENT! Oh, and prepare to stop the video to read a bit. REPENT!)
Instead of Joseph’s standard attack on the Popes and all that he thinks is unworthy in the church, you can simply read one of Dr. Ralph Martin’s statements here:
http://www.jesuschrististhelord.com/testimonies/martin/martin.htm
Or you can go to his website and see what he is doing:
http://www.renewalministries.net/?module=Home
I guarantee that this is much easier than trying to verify a prophecy from 400 years ago.
Oh yes, Ralph Martin is ever so much more reliable than Our Lady.
=+)
Susan,
Our Lady is always reliable. What is not reliable is all the things that are spread out on the internet purporting to be from Our Lady. When I decided to look into what Catholic Scripture teaches about the day of Pentecost and the spiritual gifts, I specifically went in prayer on a weekly basis to Our Lady of Perpetual Help to ask her if these things were indeed real and something that Jesus Her Son still wanted His people to have (i.e. the power of His Holy Spirit).
It is especially appropriate to go to Mary concerning the Holy Spirit because she was filled with the Holy Spirit from the first moment of her existence. Hence when the Angel Gabriel came to her he said “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you. The angel himself recognizing that she was especially entrusted with the mission of bearing the Son of God by being filled with the Holy Spirit and being full of grace since the moment of her birth.
Now as to the internet for a source of information, I am very careful. My favorite internet quote is from Abraham Lincoln. “It is hard to verify the truthfulness of quotes proffered on the internet.”
I hope that you see where I am coming from with this quote. 🙂 Things found on the internet must be carefully examined to check their truthfulness.
As for Ralph Martin, Pope Benedict XVI appointed Dr. Ralph Martin as a consultor on the Pontifical Council for the New Evangelization. He has a lot of confidence in him. When Pope Benedict XVI chooses a hand full of people out of all the people worldwide he could choose for this role, I believe that it is worth listening to what that person has to say.
If the spiritual gifts like tongues and healing were Protestant, then St. Paul, all of the Apostles and the early church fathers would be considered Protestants by the guidance being offered here on the board.
“Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. ” St Jerome (Doctor of the Church)
Your logic is circular and flawed. Your initial litmus test is the internet, So, ipso facto, everything on it must be suspiciously hated. Should we feel that way about books, films, any and all paper products, because sometimes evil is found on them? Your next fallacy is Benedict’s approval, but the yard-stick should be papal approval (Ordinary Magisterium), Tradition, and Scripture, understood throughout the ENTIRE two millennium of The Church’s history. You would have yourself be the internet’s pope, like any liberal! You believe, as most protestants do. For you the Pope is Indefectible, as the protestants feel about their televangelist, mega-church mistros. And you are quite wrong! He is infallible ONLY when he speaks EX-CATHEDRA, even Benedict.
You’re shooting the messenger (the platform) to assuage your conscience because you are in a cult that idolizes a man OVER HUMANITY’S SOLITARY BOAST!!!
You know where you find the charismatics biggest supporters? Among the false prophecies, syncretism, and disobedience fostered by the demons of Medjugorge.
WAKE UP!
Joseph said
“You know where you find the charismatics biggest supporters?”
Yes, I do Joseph. They are:
St. John XXIII
Pope Paul VI
St. John Paul II
Pope Benedict
Pope Francis.
The Holy Spirit (in the book of ACTS and the Epistles of St. Paul)
The Charismatics are in good company, the company of God and His saints.
Yes my friend, thank you for calling this to the attention of us all!
1. John XXIII was not alive when the Catholic charismatic movement was first born.
2. It began when Protestant preachers laid hand on Catholic priests – automatically making it dubious.
3. With that said, “Charismatic” is not defined very well as many people claim the word. Or rather, there are people who may authentically have gifts of the Holy Ghost but are different from the mainstream movement itself.
4. Saints, even the watered down Saints we now have in the recent Popes, and the Popes themselves make mistakes or can be deceived (e.g. look at JPII’s whole pontificate, or read historic accounts on how Paul VI was lied to concerning the construction of the new Mass for example).
5. In light of number 3, the charisms in Scripture are different from many in the movement today and must be differentiated between authentic gifts and wishy-washy emotional events swimming with error.
A Village and a Pope
The following is told by Mrs. Anna Mariea Schmitt, a surviving member of a small village in Czechoslovakia, which was wiped out by the Nazis in 1938.
In the eleventh century, when her village was faced with starvation because the severe cold had ruined their crops, a beautiful lady appeared on the mountain. She never identified herself but taught them to invoke the Holy Spirit. By following her teaching, they were filled with the Holy Spirit, manifesting all of the Pentecostal gifts, including healing, prophecy and tongues.
They avoided starvation that winter because the bread, which they had baked, was multiplied and their supply lasted miraculously until the next harvest.
Each successive generation manifested these charisms, although they didn’t consider their little village unique because they were so isolated. The power of prayer and God’s presence were so strong, the village needed no jails, nor hospitals. When someone was sick, the whole village united in prayer, expecting God to heal. There was no divorce and families welcomed all the children sent by God. The Bible was read in the home and the children were taught how to live in the power of the Spirit. Each Sunday, their celebration of Mass was joyful and they shared a fellowship meal afterward.
In the 1930’s, they were told, through the prophetic word, that a severe testing would come upon the village and empty it. This prophecy was fulfilled in 1938, when the Nazis killed almost everyone. During these executions, the Holy Spirit gave them perseverance and no one renounced their faith due to the threats. Anna Mariea herself survived both Nazi and Russian concentration camps.
The story shows a remarkable parish, totally immersed in the Holy Spirit for nine centuries. However, one more part makes the story almost too good to be true.
This totally charismatic village was visited many times by Bishop Angelo Roncalli, later Pope John XXIII. Anna Mariea delighted to sit at his feet and listen to his teachings about Jesus. He was totally at home amidst the openly charismatic manifestations of this totally Pentecostal village.
When Angelo Roncalli became the Pope and called the Second Vatican Council, he asked the whole Church to say a special prayer which began, “Renew your wonders in this our day, as by a New Pentecost.” A few years later, 1967, the total surprise of the Spirit, the Catholic Pentecostal Renewal, began.
In those early days, we constantly thanked Pope John, knowing that this new Pentecostal Movement would never have been accepted without his Council. We often would say, “If only Pope John knew what would happen because of his prayer for a New Pentecost.”
Now we realize that Pope John knew all along. Before all of us experienced Catholic Pentecostalism, he had witnessed a little village where a beautiful lady taught the people to invoke the Spirit and to use charismatic gifts.
Anna Mariea was asked if she thought the Pope John’s prayer for a New Pentecost was inspired by this village. She thinks that his desire for a new Pentecost was born in his heart long before visiting their village. He seemed to know all along what was possible when people invoked the Holy Spirit.
—–
The beautiful lady was the Blessed Virgin Mary who was filled with the Holy Spirit from her very birth. Mary who was with the disciples on the day of Pentecost when God gave His people the Holy Spirit and the Charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said to them in reply, “You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God.” (Matthew 22:29)
Pope John XXIII and Pope John Paul II are saints of the Church. Miracles have been done by the power of God through their intercession.
You can find a talk by Anna Mariea on Lighthouse Catholic Media.
Prayer of Pope John XXIII
O Mary, your name has been on my lips and in my heart from my early infancy. When I was a child I learned to love you as a Mother, turn to you in danger, and trust your intercession. You see in my heart the desire to know the truth, to practice virtue, to be prudent and just, strong and patient, a brother to all.
O Mary, help me to keep to my purpose of living as a faithful disciple of Jesus, for the building up of the Christian society and the joy of the holy Catholic Church. I greet you, Mother, morning and evening; I pray to you as I go on my way; from you I hope for the inspiration and encouragement that will enable me to fulfill the sacred promises of my earthly vocation, give glory to God, and win eternal salvation. O Mary! Like you in Bethlehem and on Golgotha, I too wish to stay always close to Jesus. He is the eternal King of all ages and all peoples.
The HOLY SPIRIT can do what HE wills, when HE wills, giving no indication as to when, where, how, or why HE acts, and when HE chooses not to. When HE chooses to stay and when HE departs is entirely HIS call. The only guarantee we have for HIS Actions are HIS POWER in facilitating The Sacraments. To this, there is no argument. It is purporting the sacriligous blasphemy of CONJURING HIM, outside this construct, that is the question. It is not anecdotes from one or two conciliar popes, but THE WHOLE of TRADITION, two millennium strong, that must be considered.
The Catholic Church, I.e., Tradition, gave us the Bible. The Bible is the daughter of Tradition and the Magisterium. The protestants threw out all of Tradition and The Magisterium, from Peter on, concocting various fables to explain God allowing 1500 years of Christianity, to meander and putter, before the great prophet, Luther, essentially started the Christian church. Protestants essentially use “the spirit” to invalidate THE ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH that HE initiated with PENTECOST! This division thing is the calling card of our enemy. With illiterate Mo, Luther is one of two greatest arch-heretics of all time, So, anything springing forth from their errors must be categorically rejected as satanic. EVERY THING!!!
You also fail to recall Paul, in Acts, rebuking and exorcising the woman who recognized Paul, and his companions, as authentic men of God. They did this because demons can, shuddering, adore and speak the truth when it suits them. What they are unable to do is humbly obey. So, carnival shows, of any kind, even pious ones, are nothing without humble obedience.
You forget the disobedient, defrocked charismatic Franciscans (St. Francis, Ora Pro Nobis!) in Medjugorge, in love with all manner of phenomena NOT from God. Your forget that for every authentic apparition of Heaven, there are 300 frauds. Sometimes those people are mentally ill, sometimes it is a money-making scheme, but sometimes it is demonic subterfuge. These demons often suggest The Rosary, Adoration, etc…because all these things are true, but what they will not do, is SUBMIT TO AUTHORITY HUMBLY! “Non-Serviam”, it is not in them. There are so-called “Christian” lodges in Masonry, which is satan-worship. Their members argue that BOTH Adonai and lucifer are God (SIC) and they fancy themselves the great arbiters of peace! The excrement king will realize any of a number of personal projections of god, as long as there is enough of a lie to keep you in darkness and death.
A bishop once said what he does when someone comes to him purporting to have seen some Heavenly personage. He said he tells them to write everything down, then after all of the messages have stopped for five years, come back and see him. He wasn’t bothered much after that. Why not a 100- year moratorium on this phenomena? Would you be Catholic without being charismatic? Many souls are “sensitives”, keenly aware of the spiritual world, does the church encourage them to explore this prowess? NO! They know the danger for the soul! Padre Pio was kept in his room for 15 years after the stigmata was discovered. Why? Instances of stigmata from satanic origins. St Pio’s humble obedience was evidence of God’s hand. If you think that everything that “miraculously” appears is manna, you are sadly mistaken.
In charity, I will confront any grave error I see, for love of GOD, my neighbor (other readers), and you, my brother.
SALVE REGINA, MATER DEI, ORA PRO NOBIS! VIVO CHRISTO REY!!!
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Article 768
So that she can fulfill her mission, the Holy Spirit “bestows upon [the Church] varied hierarchic and charismatic gifts, and in this way directs her.” “Henceforward the Church, endowed with the gifts of her founder and faithfully observing his precepts of charity, humility and self-denial, receives the mission of proclaiming and establishing among all peoples the Kingdom of Christ and of God, and she is on earth the seed and the beginning of that kingdom.”
That passage in the catechism you cite is notable in one way. It could be used to support each of our positions. That ambiguity, as Cardinal Kaspar has recently admitted, was PURPOSEFUL. Who, my friend, does not make his yeah mean yes and his nay mean no? Such a sophist approach is the very definition of modernism. The HOLY SPIRIT protects the See of Peter from EXPLICITLY, EX CATHEDRA, teaching error. No pope ever has, but Alexander VI, Honararius, Liberius, and any of a number of conciliar popes were failures either privately or appropo discipline. Francis could wash the feet of satan himself next Holy Thursday, but The See of Peter will never, formally, teach error. Strangely enough, the Sedavantists believe as you do. They believe because of the manifest, rather obvious, errors of conciliar popes from John XXIII on to today, we have no pope. You think because we have a pope, he is divine. Different sides of the same papolatry coin. Both the same error. Both need their Popes divine or one will say there is no Pope, while another equates every action of the Pope to the very WORKS OF JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF!
Recognize and, in a spirit of fraternal charity, resist, when necessary is the proper approach.
VIVO CHRISTO REY!!!.
Ahhh, deciphering the automatic writings and séances of your little, and WORLDLY-acclaimed, possessed fellow is better than the words of THE QUEEN OF ALL PROPHETS, herself! I see! There was no attack on Popes just an explanation of the papacy. In fact, stack them from Peter to Frankie-baby and EVERY ONE OF THEM Is with me except the v-2 father-founders of this NEW ORDER! Doesn’t that trouble you a bit? You can’t find one Pope, before the groovy, hippie-modernists, filled with that faux-fraternal-brotherhood-esoteric-masonic-ecumenism, who would sanction your spiritism and rank heresy? Instead of reading Martin’s divinations, I think they should simply be burned with all ouija boards and tarot cards! “And I will put ENMITY between HER seed and yours (nature’s excrement)..” What are you afraid of? Why won’t you read Her Words while Praying The Rosary? What is it in you that won’t have it? SALVE REGINA MATER MISERICORDIA, ORA PRO NOBIS!!! AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH..to destroy the works of the devil…VIVO CHRISTO REY!!!
Modern Papal Praxis si contrary to that which was condemned in the Syllabus of Errors and the vast majority of Catholics now are Indifferent; thanks, modernism
III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM
15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. — Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862; Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851.
16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. — Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.
17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. — Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.
18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. — Encyclical “Noscitis,” Dec. 8, 1849.
Has anyone here read through the New Testament lately? If so, surely I am not the only one to find Our Lord sounding harsh compared to what is coming forth from His churchmen.
That is not a good sign.
Yes indeed Lorra he does. Our Lord had no ‘I’m ok, you’re ok’ message. It was pretty much black and white…….not grey that we are seeing coming from His churchmen. I say this all the time: ‘Grey is Satan’s favorite color.’ I do believe we are walking on very treacherous ground in our Church. Tradition in the Church is being treated like a dirty word among many of our Prelates, but tradition to me is our gauge…..our compass so to speak. Throw away the compass and you run the risk of ‘anything is ok’, depending on your situation, and according to your belief system, and according to your own conscience and your own ‘self justifications’. I agree with you…..right now in the Church this is not good…..not good at all. Pray! And do some sacrificing. Our Church needs prayer…..our Priests, Bishops and Pope needs our prayers now more than ever before.
My conscience had been troubling me about the way I interacted here on this topic yesterday. Then lo and behold I randomly encounter a verse today that someone had jotted down and it hit me like an arrow through the heart:
“Among the proud there are always contentions” – Proverbs 13:10
I have no doubt it was put there for me.
So Tim, if you’re still listening, forgive me for my contentious tone yesterday. I know we’re just two anonymous blokes having a blog chat and it shouldn’t seem like a big deal, but these conversations can have very real spiritual consequences and I felt the need to set things right. It doesn’t mean we don’t disagree, but I’m the kind that just can’t let something go that’s weighing on me. Gotta confess it and make things right.
Peace.
Kevin,
In the spirit of your post, I would like to apologize to you if I have been inconsiderate or too forceful in presenting my information to you. I believe you and others here to be sincere Catholics in their love for Jesus Christ and His church. Please forgive me if in my lack of humility I have made you feel otherwise.
I would like to affirm to everyone here Terri, Susan, Joseph, c matt, et al. that you are beloved children of God the Father and that he loves you deeply.
There is one last piece of information that I think it is important to share. It concerns Sacred Tradition and infallibility. The article comes from Fr. Kenneth Doyle and answers well the issues of papal infallibility. I know of only two infallible teachings declared by the Popes and they are both doctrines concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary –the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.
But here is the explanation (and I believe it to be a short, but good one). From the Catholic Courier of November 6, 2013.
Q. What is the church’s foundation for declaring itself to be infallible when the pope speaks ex cathedra and with the entire magisterium supporting him? I understand that the church made this declaration around 1870 A.D., and it seems a little curious to arrive at that conclusion nearly 2,000 years after the life of Christ. How many teachings on faith and morals have been declared infallible, and what are some of them? And if something has not been defined as infallible, are we free to question and discuss? (Hudson, Wis.)
A. The doctrine of infallibility, while sometimes misunderstood by Catholics and others, is clearly defined by the church’s Code of Canon Law. Canon 749, Section 1, explains that the pope may teach infallibly when he proclaims by definitive act that a certain doctrine of faith or morals is to be believed by the faithful. He must clearly state that he intends to teach that doctrine as infallible and irreformable. The consensus among theologians is that only twice in the church’s history has the Holy Father by himself exercised this prerogative: in 1854 with the dogma of the Immaculate Conception and in 1950 with the Assumption. But there is a second manner of infallible pronouncements (Canon 749, 2), and this happens when the college of bishops, joined in an ecumenical council, proclaim that a certain truth is to be held by all the faithful. An example would be at Nicaea in 325 A.D., when it was declared that Jesus is “of the same substance” (nature) as God the Father. The doctrine of infallibility did not suddenly appear in 1870. Rather, it is founded on Christ’s promise to the apostles that he would send the Holy Spirit, who “will guide you to all truth” (Jn 16:13). That secure sense of protection from error on fundamental teachings was part of the early history of the church and is reflected in St. Augustine’s fifth-century statement, “Rome has spoken; the case is concluded.” Infallible declarations have been issued only sparsely during the church’s two-millennium history and have usually been formulated in response to particular issues that had been disputed. But, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains (No. 892), even the ordinary teaching of the bishops, as successors of the apostles and joined with the pope, are to be followed “with religious assent.” So where does that leave Catholics as to their freedom “to question and discuss” noninfallible teachings? The answer seems to depend on the particular teaching — how fundamental it is and how solidly embedded in the history and tradition of the church. For example, in 1994, when Pope John Paul II said in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis that the church lacks the authority to ordain women, the word infallible did not appear. But the pontiff did say that this teaching should be “definitively held” and suggested that further debate was pointless. But on the issue of mandatory celibacy for clergy, Archbishop Pietro Parolin, the new papal secretary of state, noted recently that this is a matter of church discipline and not dogma, that the early church had married priests and that the matter is therefore open to discussion.
Questions may be sent to Father Kenneth Doyle at askfatherdoyle@gmail.com and 40 Hopewell St., Albany, NY 12208.
My final comment as to Sacred Scripture, it is the Word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit. The church is established by Jesus in the words of Sacred Scripture. (Let us not forget also that the church has told us what books are Sacred Scripture.) Therefore the government and teachings of the church must agree with Sacred Scripture.
“ And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:18)
May the peace of Christ be with you all,
Tim
Thank the dear Lord for Confession Kevin. He is all merciful, all good and all loving. It’s hard (for me too) to keep the conversation charitable when (if you’re anything like me) you feel so very strongly about the direction of His Church. I have to remind myself constantly………He is in control, and He has our back. Yes, indeed, confession is good…………….for ALL of us. Satan is always prowling around looking for any and all opportunities, now more than ever before. These are confusing times for our Church, and confusion is never from God, it’s always from Satan. Pray for our Church, pray for our Priests, and pray for the Pope, they need it now more than ever. I read an article not long ago with the headlines: “The Smoke Of Satan That Entered The Sanctuary Has Now Turned Into A Raging Fire.” That about says it all.
Thank you for the reminder (for me too) to utilize this wondrous Sacrament the Lord has gifted us with.
Peace and Blessings
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