“In my view, a Church which seeks above all to be attractive, is already on the wrong path, because the Church does not work for herself, she does not work to increase her numbers and power. She works for Another. She serves not herself, not to become strong. She serves to make the announcement of Jesus Christ more accessible…..”
– Pope Benedict XVI
Last night, as I was browsing the various commentaries on the Pope’s latest round of the Telephone Game, I came across this one by Fr. Ray Blake. The post is short, but one of his comments was, I think, quite telling of the panic inducing sense of contradiction this papacy is beginning to inflict:
The real question is, ‘Is the Pope a Catholic?’ The only possible answer is in the affirmative, therefore any ‘strangeness’ is impossible, otherwise…, otherwise…. well, that is impossible to imagine, and millions of Catholics have been living a lie and our faith is built on sand.
Please allow me to illustrate this reaction in another way:
http://youtu.be/cLyxmD_UAK4
If you think about it, the analogy is perfect. Finding out that your father is really Darth Vader is going to give anyone a case of the Mondays.
The word “impossible” has been coming up a lot in reference to the idea that the pope could have said what he is alleged to have said on that phone call to the little missus in Argentina.
This is the thing that is troubling people. They can’t wrap their minds around the idea that a pope could really say something about faith and morals that is…wrong. Because what would that mean? Because what would happen next? BECAUSE THEN WE’D HAVE TO FACE THE FACT THAT THE WHOLE FAITH WOULD BE A LIE AND THAT WOULD BE INCONCEIVABLE!!!!
(You know I just had to.)
Later on in the comments, my ol’ pal Hilary White came riding in on the Horse of Good Sense. She wrote:
Father, I hate to correct a venerable priest, but I believe you are mistaken in your comment:
“Tereze,
I don’t know what you mean by ‘strange’. The real question is, ‘Is the Pope a Catholic?’ The only possible answer is in the affirmative, therefore any ‘strangeness’ is impossible, otherwise…, otherwise…. well, that is impossible to imagine, and millions of Catholics have been living a lie and our faith is built on sand.”No, it certainly would not mean that. Not at all. This kind of thinking is what got us into this mess. The pope is not the Faith. The pope does not give us the Faith. If the pope loses the Faith, I don’t lose mine. If the pope is a heretic, an apostate, a schismatic or any of those horrible things, I don’t have to be those things too.
The Faith comes from God not Rome. The papacy is a key unit of the Church, so having such a bad one would be a terrible thing, but absolutely no reason whatever for anyone to lose their Faith.
I personally think we are in a unique situation. I have asked many smarty-smart people, who know lots of history and theology, when there has been a comparable disastrous period in the Church, and each one of them has said something like, “Well, the Arian crisis comes close, but this is probably worse.” And it is clear that the current worries about Francis are not isolated, unique or distinct from the general catastrophe that has befallen us.
Francis, if I may say something so dreadful, is a symptom – or perhaps the culmination – of the overall disaster that has become the ruling principle of the world since 1965. But again, this has no effect on the Faith. The Faith is simply the Truth. The Real. The realness of the Real does not change or fade because lots and lots of people want to deny it. Two and two still equal four. Marriage is still what it is. The Holy Eucharist is still the Holy Eucharist.
If the Papacy has been seized by bad men it does not mean that the things we believe are “built on sand”. It means only that the papacy has been seized by bad men. Bad men will do what bad men do, and we can do nothing but maintain and continue to proclaim what we know is true throughout their reign.
Facing up to the possibility that something very bad is going on does not necessitate a loss of the Faith. Fearing that the sky will fall if there is a bad pope, fearing it so much that one tries to retreat into denial of what we see plainly before us, will do nothing to help anyone.
Facing up to what is really happening is the only way to maintain the Faith. Retreating and saying, “oh, that couldn’t possibly happen and if it did then the Real is no longer the Real.” is going to allow the disaster to spread still further.
Only the Real counts. And if the pope and all the cardinals and bishops of the world try to say that something other than the Word of Christ is true, then we reject that as a wicked lie. We know what is true because we have the Faith.
As laypeople (and humble parish priests) our duty is clearly before us. We don’t have the power to stop bad men from doing bad things. But we have the power to continue to maintain the Faith, what we know. And to pray for a just solution to the terrible troubles of our times.
Father responded:
Hilary,
Where does it leave Christ promise to be with his Church forever, where does it leave our interpretation of ‘Tu es Petrus …’? Where does it leave the unity of the Church? If the Pope is what you suggest we have indeed built on sand.
I swear to heaven, sometimes I wish Vatican I never happened. So many problems would have been eliminated if not for the promulgation of that pesky doctrine of papal infallibility. Not that I don’t think popes are infallible. Of course there is such a thing as limited and specific papal infallibility. But the problem with the promulgation (and Cardinal Newman saw it coming) is that now, everyone (including non-Catholics) thinks everything a pope says is infallible teaching for the Church — or at least pretty damn close. If they do not expressly believe this, it appears that they subconsciously do. On the one hand, it gives rise to the uber-ultramontanists (or “papal positivists”, as Hilary likes to call them.) On the other, it gives us the sedevacantists, who are so bound up in their need to obey everything the Holy Father says that when he says something problematic that no reasonable person would consider binding, they say he’s a heretic and thus not the real pope. In every case, it means every papal utterance is scrutinized for meaning, for its level of authority, and for the extent to which it compels in the faithful the obligation of assent.
It makes people think that faithfulness to God’s laws and faithfulness to the pope are one and the same thing. Wrong. And if the pope does this thing that has everyone saying it isn’t possible, people are going to have to face that fact.
To paraphrase St. Thomas More — on the same bloody issue, it pains me to say– “I am the Pope’s faithful servant, but God’s first.”
I also left a comment in response to Fr. Blake. So far on his blog, it is still awaiting moderation. So I’ll share it (slightly modified) with you here:
Father,
Juridically speaking, it is certainly possible. We have had both interregnums and antipopes – 30 of the latter, according to the Catholic encyclopedia.
The question is how it affects the man who is the visible head of the office. Since only the Church (most specifically in the person of the pope, who is her supreme legislator) has the authority to say that a pope is a heretic, and thus, in fact, an antipope, a pope would have to in a fit of conscience accuse himself, or a successor of his would have to accuse him posthumously.
A good treatise on this (and why the sedevacantists are wrong for arrogating to themselves the authority to make such judgments, but not wrong in recognizing that such a situation could exist) can be found here.
I would suggest that we have a unique situation on our hands. We have two popes currently living. Pope Benedict has not re-taken the title of “Cardinal Ratzinger” as those who abdicated before him did; he has not returned to his diocese or even stopped wearing his papal garb. If one were to hypothesize (and that’s all this is), one could imagine such a (far-fetched, but possible) scenario:
At the synod in October, Pope Francis fulfills our worst fears and supports this desecration of the Eucharist in the name of “mercy” and “pastoral concern”.
Those who believe that the papacy is the faith say, “If the pope wishes to change discipline, he can change it” and follow him.
But what if Pope Emeritus Benedict were to step forward, break his silence, and say that it was wrong? What if he were (to go deeper into this fantasy) admit that his abdication was coerced (thus making Francis’s election canonically invalid) because he was pressured to do some thing he could not in good conscience do and feared the very sort of schism that was now on his doorstep, and he was trying to forestall it?
Could it be possible that the Church could split into two camps, one with an anti-pope as head, and one with a real one?
I don’t see any legal reason that it could not.
I’m not aiming for plausibility here, I’m shooting for a scenario in which what might happen with this synod could make sense and yet not in any way mitigate the truth of the True Faith.
“From the crisis of today the Church of tomorrow will emerge—a Church that has lost much. She will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes, so will she lose many of her social privileges. In contrast to an earlier age, she will be seen much more as a voluntary society, entered only by free decision.”
– Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
Only a wild-ass theory? Yes. I offer no assurances that this is remotely likely, but I am trying to envision a scenario in which this thing could happen and the sky would not fall. I am looking, quite simply, for God’s contingency plan.
And as Belloc so wisely admonished, “Oh! Let us never never doubt what nobody is sure about.”
The “crisis of today” means that “the Church of tomorrow” will be smaller and have to start over. What could precipitate such a change? I think we’re seeing it taking shape right now.
People who say that what is happening in the Church right now is impossible are usually the ones who protest, “But the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church!”
And they’re right. Christ promised us.
He also promised his apostles that he would be with them “until the end of the age.” (Mt. 28:20) And then he went and got himself crucified.
Don’t you think the apostles were maybe thinking along the same lines that many Catholics are now? Consider this passage from The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ (emphasis mine):
When he found that they were asleep, he clasped his hands and fell down on his knees beside them, overcome with sorrow and anxiety, and said: ‘Simon, sleepest thou?’ They awoke, and raised him up, and he, in his desolation of spirit, said to them: ‘What? Could you not watch one hour with me?’ When they looked at him, and saw him pale and exhausted, scarcely able to support himself, bathed in sweat, trembling and shuddering,—when they heard how changed and almost inaudible his voice had become, they did not know what to think, and had he not been still surrounded by a well-known halo of light, they would never have recognised him as Jesus. John said to him: ‘Master, what has befallen thee? Must I call the other disciples? Ought we to take to flight?’ Jesus answered him: ‘Were I to live, teach, and perform miracles for thirty-three years longer, that would not suffice for the accomplishment of what must be fulfilled before this time tomorrow. Call not the eight; I did not bring them hither, because they could not see me thus agonising without being scandalised; they would yield to temptation, forget much of the past, and lose their confidence in me. But you, who have seen the Son of Man transfigured, may also see him under a cloud, and in dereliction of spirit; nevertheless, watch and pray, lest ye fall into temptation, for the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.’
– The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ (p. 4). . Kindle Edition.
This is what is happening. Right now, seeing the Church agonizing and being compromised and the pope doing and saying unthinkable things, the faith of many is being severely challenged. And yet, even if the worst case comes to pass, even if the pope himself apostatizes, this isn’t the end of the road for us as Catholics.
This may really be the Church’s via dolorosa, but there will be a Road to Emmaus that follows. If you’re struggling with the possibilities, take heart. God is present and active in his Church in ways that we don’t see. God will find a way and keep his promises. He always does, even if he seems to take a certain delight in making us wait for it until it seems all hope is lost.
I prefer to ride the faith train. I am, by God’s grace alone, praying more these days than I ever have, and God is making his presence known to me in ways that are entirely new and incredibly comforting. Reach out to him. He sees the confusion and the hurt. He will console you. Take heart, and draw close to the Lord.
When it comes right down to it, this storm in the Church may be big, and it may be fearsome, but Jesus never let choppy seas ruffle his composure. His advice is the best advice: “Fear not, only believe.” (Mk. 5:36)
Star Wars *and* The Princess Bride in one post — bonus!
You keep saying what I’m thinking, although I’ll admit to not having thought as far ahead as your synod scenario. Which, honestly, doesn’t sound that wild to me.
The “fear not” part has not been easy lately. Too much upheaval, not enough prayer. There’s nothing else for it, though, is there?
As I posted elsewhere (another blog):
The likelihood that the pope will change doctrine, if one believes in the indefectibility of the Church, is non-existent. If he is so inclined to allow the divorced and remarried to receive communion, there are essentially three options:
1.) Delegate authority to the pastor of those in these marriages to make the judgment call about nullity without recourse to tribunal, thus opening up the situation to huge levels of abuse and subjectivity without changing any teaching about who is allowed to receive communion (Catholics in a state of grace).
2.) Continue giving the impression that it’s OK to change this doctrine, drawing out the process leading to the synod in October with intrigue on the topic and leading people to believe they may as well just go ahead and do it because the pope thinks it’s OK. When the synod comes, nothing is officially changed, some pastoral language is added, ambiguity continues, exploitation of the same accelerates.
3.) Attempt to change the doctrine in some more substantive way, leading to overt concerns that Francis is an anti-pope, and fomenting an almost immediate schism.
My fears have been closer to #3, but the most probable is either #1 or #2. #1 is worse than #2 in some respects, because it actually changes the competent authority and removes tribunals and the (supposed) objectivity that goes with them. If pastors can’t figure out how to avoid liturgical abuse, they’ll do no better on this.
If you pressed me, I’d say one of these three things, or some variation/combination thereof, is coming this year. And even #1 or #2 could cause a schism, but it would be a less violent one with more jagged lines.
The German Peter Hünerman, a retired (progressive) Professor of Dogmatic Theology who knows Pope Francis from joint projects on Social Doctrine since the days of the military dictatorship that ruled Argentina said in a diskussion between vatican experts in June last year that the Pope will choose (your) option 1.):
allow the dioceses and parishes more freedom and controll them less.
I found the link last year on the German website of “We are Church”.
http://www.wir-sind-kirche.de/print_version.php?id=129&id_entry=4646
Peter Hünermann also published books together with the Pope´s former teacher Juan Carlos Scannone JS who invented the Argentine current of liberation theology the “Theology of the people”.
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/popes-one-time-teacher-to-write-for-italian-jesuit-publication/
That makes sense. It accomplishes the maximum amount of damage while providing the greatest amount of cover against accusations of doctrinal change.
I completely agree. These people know exactly what they are doing. I studied their pubications (the joint German- Latinamerican projects on Catholic social doctrine which is their codename for liberation theology).which I found after I read months ago at “Vaticaninsider” about the Pope´s teacher F. Juan Carlos Scannone and couldn´t believe my eyes. Margit Eckholt who years ago helped in these joint projects together with Peter Hünermann is now also a Professor of Dogmatic Theology (!) at the University of Osnabrück.
The Germans monitored the results of these projects Argentina as “Vatcaninsider” knows:
“What resulted were some pastoral experiences which still occupy a special place in the current Pope’s heart which have been examined in studies on the urban mission, shared by the Faculty of Theology of the Catholic University of Argentina and Germany’s Osnabrück University.”
http://www.lastampa.it/2014/03/07/esteri/vatican-insider/en/francis-if-youre-looking-for-jesus-youll-find-him-on-the-street-0hIPhBUA5UUsvz5d2DnKsI/pagina.html
Everybody who understands German can read Margit Eckholt´s latest praise of F. Lucio Gera, another liberation theologian and also a former teacher of Pope Francis. The title says:”My theology comes out of the pastoral…”
http://www.stimmen-der-zeit.de/zeitschrift/ausgabe/details?k_beitrag=4024832&query_start=6
This artice was even recommended by our ultra-progressive Card. Lehmann.who was delighted when Card. Bergoglio became Pope.
And a correction: F. Scannone is “SJ” not “JS”.
Cardinal Baldisseri, Secretary General of the Synod of Bishops, took your option 1.):
”
Cardinal Baldisseri, 73, confirmed in the interview that Pope Francis wishes local bishops to be seriously involved in the global governance of the Church and for there to be a new balance between centralization and local autonomy”.
http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/618-secretary-general-of-synod-on-the-family-the-church-is-not-timeless
The schism with the jagged lines calls to mind the jagged line (lightening) in the sky above St. Peter’s on the day Benedict announced his resignation. I had prayed and asked the Lord the meaning of the lightening (or if there was any significance) and I believe He said that the jagged form represented the tearing, schism to come from this.
And I thought of it today: ‘I watched Satan fall like lightning from heaven.’ and ‘Let the heavens rejoice and all who live there; but for you, earth and sea, trouble is coming – because the devil has gone down to you in a rage, knowing that his days are numbered.’ Our redemption is close at hand.
For years I have been saying the same thing about Vatican I. I also have pondered whether the Church is nothing more than a sham organization that just happened to get lucky for two thousand years. I’ve pondered many things in order to try and make sense of all of this.
I don’t know what I am going to do at this point. But I have noticed that we keep moving the goal posts every time the present one is met just to avoid the inevitable.
And I have also noticed that every time a blogger brings his “audience” to the edge, he retreats. Consequently, I find myself getting a bit tired of going back and then going forward, only to be pushed back yet again.
This is not a retreat, Lorra. I’m not changing my opinion. Since this is all speculative, it could go in any direction, but the situation is constantly evolving.
Men who want to abuse their power in order to get what they want don’t let go of it lightly. More and more people are waking up to what this papacy is about, and it’s possible that they might scale back their efforts in order to maintain equilibrium. I don’t know.
The point is that no matter what happens, the Church remains. That’s the bottom line. What form it keeps, whether or not it becomes a catacomb Church for a tiny remnant, or has a renaissance after a period of decline, it’s impossible to know.
I don’t want people to think that I’m counseling despair, since some have taken away that message. I trust in God, I trust in His Church, and I trust in His plan.
But I am remembering that His plan involved the brutal crucifixion of His Divine Son. Should we expect this not to hurt before it gets better?
That’s fine. What are we supposed to do while all this is going on? It just doesn’t cut it anymore telling myself some flowery pious thoughts (i.e. the Church is going through the Passion, join Our Lady at the foot of the Cross etc. etc.). I’ve been doing that for years now with little to no success.
Maybe I am finally losing my faith. It wouldn’t surprise me. I have been spiritually starving ever since I returned to the novus ordo Mass, and I have long suspected that grace does not abound at that travesty.
Steve, I am sorry to rant. It wouldn’t be so bad if I had support where I am, but I have no one. Oh yes, I’ve been told I have all the angels and saints with me. That’s nice, but it doesn’t help very much. My diocese has two sede and one SSPX chapel. That’s right. And they all do a booming business. They must be busting out at the seams now thanks to Francis.
You are a good man. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to let some steam out before the top of my head blows off.
Pray for me please.
I’m not an advocate of the SSPX path, but if I were in your shoes, it’s where I would go. You’re getting something that is tainted etiher way. Better to attend to the one that is more conducive for your soul.
Be assured of my prayers.
“one SSPX chapel”
PIUS
THE
TENTH
PATCH
Brer bishops
Brer priests
And brer people of god
Celebrate, collaborate
To sacrifice just seems odd.
Brer mother of ten cried,
“I assist tried and trued.”
Brer people of god cried,
“Chill out
Take a lude.”
Brer priest said,
“Ms. Brer come on smile
Serve with me
The True Faith, let pass,
Make a mess – harmony!”
With these words
Brer mother got sick
And threw up
So brer priest urged her, “Go
If you can’t drink our cup.”
“So you’re urgin’ I go?”
And her head she did scratch,
“Jus’ please don’t throw me
In no Pius the
Tenth Patch!!”
But brer priest
Flung brer mother
Out the door shut the latch
And forced her to land
In a Pius the Tenth Patch.
So celebration, collaboration
Is given the nod
By brer bishops
Brer priests
And brer people of god
But high on a hill
Brer mother of ten
Is singin’ and kickin’
Her heels
Up again…
“I was born and raised
In a Pius the Tenth Patch
Known as Catholic Church
And there still ain’t
No match!!!”
@Lorra: Sadly, your state of mind and situation sounds strikingly like mine. I fear a loss of the Faith. Disabled and recovering from brain surgery, unable to drive anymore, my only accessible Mass now is the local N.O. three blocks away that I usually could walk to. But more and more (over 3 years), I just couldn’t take it anymore. I felt that it was literally sucking my soul dry. So I haven’t been to Mass for at least six months now, other than on Easter with my Dad. Of course, I didn’t receive Holy Communion.
I can’t even go to Confession to beg for absolution until I know in my heart and soul that I truly will stop the grievous sin of missing Sunday Mass intentionally. And I can’t say that. I feel pretty lost at the moment.
I’ll pray for you, Lorra. Please pray for me, in your charity.
Elizabeth, I assure you of my prayers. Ask Our Blessed Mother to hold onto you. She will. And don’t let go of your Rosary.
Thanks so much, Lorra, for your prayers and suggestions. I know, I know. But struggling. God bless you.
Lorra, I’m sad to hear you in such turmoil. Try these links and see if there is a TLM near where you live first. God Bless you, and may you find peace:
http://www.latinmassschedule.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=54&Itemid=2
http://www.latinmassschedule.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=54&Itemid=2
Steve Jacobson
Steve, that is very kind of you. Thank you.
Pray for me, please, that I make the decision that won’t endanger the salvation of my soul.
Steve, in my ranting I forgot to ask you how you know people are waking up.
I will offer my Rosary for you tonight.
Brian, I do not know if your comment was directed at Steve or myself. In case of the latter, I thank you very much.
I’m hearing more and more people come forward and speak up about their concerns. Even the fact that people are now saying, “He can’t do that. That’s impossible” means they’re wrestling with something they see.
I can’t prove it statistically, but since I’ve been paying attention to this from day one (and labeled a pariah for my efforts) when I notice a shift in opinion, it catches my attention.
THE
POPE
The Pope
Is the Pope
In cope
Ya dope
But never
Was there
Such a Pope
To cope
I hope
This Pope
Won’t have
To grope
When he
Finally comes
To his
End.
The Pope
Has a head
Of argentine
Taupe
But never
Was there
Such a Pope
Oh nope
No trope
Of hope
He makes
Me mope
But he’s
Real
And not
Pretend.
The Pope
Is the Pope
Not soap
On-a-rope
But never
Was there
Such a Pope
To lope
His passive
Pride will
Make you
Tope
But he’s
Pope
I must
Contend.
The Pope
Throws a rope
Round
Cantelope
Oh nope
The Pope
Eats
Antelope?
With Christ
Elope
From this Pope’s
Scope
And pray
For this
Pope
My friend!
It was you Lorra, but I’ll throw in Steve for good measure as he’s a wise and courageous man, and I benefit greatly from his writing. Sorry, for some reason this browser doesn’t nest comments. God bless!
A very impressive and thought provoking set of scenarios.
If nothing else, we’ve been allowed some brief time to prepare ourselves for what may be a very rough time in the near future. We will have to prepare as the friars of old did… fasting, mortification, penance, prayer and the holy eucharist above all.
I for one plan to take advantage of the time the Lord is allowing me to prepare for what ever He has for us.
Aloha Mr. Skojec, there could be other ways for a Pope to be not canonically elected. All the ways opposed a canonical election. One that comes to mind is if say a papal candidate were a modernist, and a significant number of electing cardinals as him or like minded and the electing cardinals colluded to elect one of their own. It has bothered me that we get to know what went on within the conclave e.g. Card. Bergoglio came in second the last time, when the cardinals swear to secrecy. This is very telling of them (cf. Ws 14:31). My thinking: they use the media to shape public opinion to facilitate their aims (communion for the divorced and remarried, not gaining traction, call the lady and gauge public reaction ,,,) btw, is that the case Mario Palmaro called out the Pope on? They also know the consequences and that’s why they are quick to say, ‘no doctrine has changed, etc.’
I had always dreaded that this day would come. That there would come a time when there would be so much division and confusion in the Church that Catholics would no longer know what to believe. That it would be an extremely lonely time where the faithful remnant would have to work out the faith with fear and trembling, digging deeper and holding on to the precious faith handed down to us. It seemed bleak…
But having read this blog I find tremendous hope. The hope that not a bone in the body of Christ will be broken and that we though many who form one body, despite how small our numbers may be, who lie in wait watching, praying, holding on to the faith despite it being the size of a mustard seed and despite how deeply troubling this all is, despite how frightening it is, can still gather together with one mind and heart, sharing our struggles and praying for the Holy Spirit to work in us and bring us to redemption. Giving support and encouragement to the weak who are tempted to run away from the faith because it is can feel like too much to handle at times.
The way that you are able to capture these thoughts Steve is remarkable. Every thought or concern that I have had in recent days is addressed in very clear terms, yet always balanced and always respectful, but very firm. It takes courage. Thank you for being brave enough to say what so many of us struggle to express yet feel deeply in our hearts and cannot deny.
May the Holy Spirit continue to inspire you to bring the good news to the poor.
Thank you. You’re too kind. I really do pray that God will help me to do His will, and not mine (or someone else’s).
“I really do pray that God will help me to do His will, and not mine (or someone else’s).”
There are many people praying this for you as well…
I would echo the words of Truth Seeker. You don’t know how much your words encourage those of us who are so isolated and just clinging on to our Lord and His ancient Church for dear life. As a convert from Protestantism ( even am a preacher’s kid – a strong Christian heritage, thank God, but not the fullness of faith) I have staked everything on the dogmas and doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church as the true faith. Having only been in the Church for 10 years I was not aware of all the problems with V2 but still know that entering the Church and assenting to Her teachings was the best decision of my life. I must say that this papacy has really caused me much heartache and I’m at the point now that I can’t really listen to or follow any news coming from the Vatican either on secular or religious networks. There is a verse I found in Jeremiah that has helped me a lot –
‘Thus says the Lord: Stand by the roads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.’ Jeremiah 6:16 RSV
Rather contradicts the unrelenting thirst for novelty coming from this Pope and his advisors, don’t you think?
Thanks again Steve.
Thank you for that quote from Jeremiah. The Old Testament prophets, especially the minor ones, are very good to read during this time. Much of what they wrote is applicable today.
Hello Steve
So here we go again. Why are we not even vaguely surprised? We discussed all of this on e-mail some months ago. And this is just the latest manifestation of the insanity gripping the Vatican. The silly folksiness, the verbal inanities, the theological train-wreck thinking, the deep disrespect for Holy Tradition, and most Catholics so uncatechised that all they can is dance around the golden calf. Francis is at best a complete relativist, at worst a borderline heretic. And the only person who could say anything, Benedict XVI, remains silent. Pope Benedict, for how long are you going to sit back and just watch this circus unfold?
We’ve had bad pope’s before. That’s not the point. The pope is the steward. He manages the apartment building for the Landlord but he is not the Landlord. No matter what stupid, heretical crap Francis dishes up I know that my rent goes to the Landlord and He’s the one I’m keeping my eye on. In other words, the pope whether he is a Borgia or John the 22nd (the one who got killed by his lover’s husband) is not the Faith.
Immoral popes are not the same as heretical popes. Alexander VI was the pits, but when it came to doctrine, he never flinched.
Here’s a novelty. I’ll reply to myself! 🙂
I wanted to add that Alexander VI bought the papacy and was guilty of simony. Simony was an excommunicable offense, yet he is not regarded as an anti-pope.
Hi Lorra,
I’ve seen your comments before on the Blog for Dallas Area Catholics, and I share your pain!! I remember you saying that you had been through all this before when the Church first went schizo, and you were so tired of it. I agree with Steve that the SSPX seems to be your only option. You are truly falling apart spiritually, it seems, and you need to find Traditional teachings, companionship and guidance. Please don’t lose your faith. The Faith is still the Faith. It’s just harder to find it in these dark times. I will pray for you. (Pray for me too as my family is in a similar situation regarding lack of TLM and true Catholic teachings.)
On a separate topic, I think you may have mentioned on the tantumergo blog about the difficulty of making the transition to the NO Mass back when it first was promulgated. I have always been curious about what it must have been like to see such a drastic change in the Mass, the teachings, and the attitudes toward true Catholicism. I would love to hear your experience regarding “the big change.”
LaGallina, yes, that’s me. And you are right in what you remember.
I could easily write a book on my experience during the sixties, seventies, and well into the eighties, which is why the canonizations that took place yesterday have alienated me even more from the Church. I waited in vain for John Paul II to do something as I was sure that once he got wind of how bad things were and the abuses that were taking place, he would put an end to it all. But he never did, and everything got worse.
I will pray for you and your family as well. I have reached the point where I am convinced that there is enough of a crisis in the Church to warrant going to confession to an SSPX priest.
: ß
But what if Pope Emeritus Benedict were to step forward, break his silence, and say that it was wrong?
Interesting, and disconcerting, thought experiment. Even more troubling, for me, anyway, is what if Benedict doesn’t break silence? What if the October synod comes and goes, options 1 or 2 are taken, silence. Time passes, options 1 or 2 (inevitably) morph into option 3 – if not officially, then at least practically speaking (and isn’t that the end game of options 1 or 2 anyway?). And silence. What then?
To Lorra: Re: “It wouldn’t be so bad if I had support where I am, but I have no one.”
I’ll support you, Lorra.
It’s not all about the Pope or the Vatican or even the Church on earth. Three days ago, my wife and I had our third and fourth children. We’ve had two sets of twins in two years. Six years ago, I was an unmarried 44-year-old, long-haired non-Catholic. One-year later my Christian fiancee helped to convert me to Christianity (I chose the Catholic brand), and the next year I converted her to Catholicism. Now I’m a 50-year-old, long-haired married Catholic with four beautiful Catholic children. And, as Captain Kirk might say about the Federation, we’re still spreading out. My 2 1/2 year-old daughter Lydia knows more of the Rosary than I do. My ex-Protestant wife taught her. I’m still growing, as they say, but it’s not just about me anymore. God grant that we won’t be martyrs, but if so, we’ll have great fun as a Catholic family before it comes to that. Would I want to “turn back the clock” to my officially agnostic days when Benedict occupied the Chair of St. Peter? Not a chance.
I tell you: at this point what Father Bergoglio–that pompous nonentity–does or says is almost meaningless to us. Sure, the whole thing makes me concerned and angry, but at some point you just have to pull back. As Hillary White said, in the end it’s about your faith, not the Pope’s.
Who would have thought that a book called “The Bad Popes” (by a fellow named E.R. Chamberlin) would make inspirational reading for a Catholic? But it does. You think Francis is bad? How about seven popes in six years (early 10th century), each representing a different faction, each ascending the throne by throwing his predecessor into the Tiber or onto the mob, or gouging out his eyes and then throwing him into the Tiber or onto the mob, or starving him to death in a dungeon or whatever. Did any of these popes contradict doctrine? Well, no (although the records are so poor it seems presumptuous to be sure of this). But perhaps that’s because they were too busy diverting papal income to their faction, or keeping one or more of their mistresses happy (in part so she wouldn’t betray them to another faction) or scheming to avoid the next guy in line trying to gouge out their eyes or throw them into the Tiber, etc., etc. And this was within living memory of the sack of Rome by Muslims (!) and during which time the Muslim front lines in (in Italy) were barely thirty miles away.
But the world did not end, and Christendom and the Church were actually about to experience a new dawn.
Keep fighting the good fight. You were promised (and will in the end receive) literally everything. But no one said it would be easy (or if they did, they fibbed). And if you were told that you would be hated and betrayed, it would have been naive to think that the people that hated and betrayed you wouldn’t necessarily be the people whose support you thought you most needed or valued–even including those within the Church.
Or so it seems to me, at least in my more optimistic moods. 🙂
Oakes Spalding, what a wonderful life and attitude (when you’re in an optimistic mood). The Pope is not the Faith. I’m sorry, Lorra, that you’re having a difficult time. Find some aspect of Catholicism that you love; the rosary, mental prayer, spiritual reading, and throw yourself into it.
Elizabeth above said: “But more and more (over 3 years), I just couldn’t take it anymore. I felt that it was literally sucking my soul dry. So I haven’t been to Mass for at least six months now…
I can’t even go to Confession to beg for absolution until I know in my heart and soul that I truly will stop the grievous sin of missing Sunday Mass intentionally. And I can’t say that. I feel pretty lost at the moment.”
I’m pretty much exactly where you’re at, Elizabeth.
I was told by a priest in Confession, when I mentioned how difficult it was for me to attend the Novus Ordo, to keep in mind that the Crucifixion scene was not pleasant, and so I was to suffer through it. I tried to hold on for as long as I could, but I eventually stopped going to Mass 9 months ago. But now, just as you said, I am without the Sacrament of Penance, because how do I say I missed Mass when I know I have no intention of attending the NO anymore? (I have one TLM about 50 minutes away, and there are multiple reasons why the weekly trip cannot be made.) So I have this terrible dilemma…I NEED Confession, but the only way I can get it is by committing myself to going back to the NO. Either way, I’m miserable. I have no peace going to Mass, and I have no peace not going to Mass. Certainly no peace without Confession. And since I’m not in a state of grace, I can hardly pray, because I just figure God doesn’t hear those who are cut off.
Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I at least found some solace in what you and Lorra are experiencing. It’s a strange place to be when your Catholic Faith means so much to you, but then am unable to immerse yourself in that which you love so dearly.
And Steve, your posts (and follow-up comments) have been brilliant lately. I have a real sense that your deepened prayer life is paying off in terms of how you are able to explain in a clear fashion, just what is going on with this current papacy, and also what we inevitably should expect down the road. Thank you for your courage to say the things that need to be said.
Char: Thanks for chiming in. It gives me solace also to hear from others in similar dilemmas. And yes, it sure is a strange place to be in. Going to that Mass was sucking me dry, but not going to Mass at all, or Confession, is terrible for my soul also. Lorra’s advice to cling to the Blessed Mother and the Rosary is the only thing that makes sense and something I can do. Not consistently, though, which is why I fear I’m losing my faith. I’ll pray for you, Char. In your charity, would you please say a prayer for me?
This is really sad for me to hear. I completely understand what both of you are going through. If I didn’t have any other options, I’m afraid I’d find myself in the same situation. (Imagine what it’s like to be a traditional priest stuck in a diocese that makes you do the Novus Ordo! I know a priest who has been dealing with that for a decade…)
I’m curious. Summorum Pontificum makes provisions for people to request a TLM from a parish. Have you tried this? Are there any people in your area who might be similarly interested, such that you could form a “stable group”?
Also, do you have any Eastern Rite parishes where you are? Melkite, Ruthenian, Ukranian, etc? When I’ve been in situations where I couldn’t get a decent Roman Rite mass, I’d go East. Spiritually, it’s a much closer experience to the TLM, and the people in Byzantine/Eastern parishes are usually the nicest you’ll ever meet.
Just a couple thoughts. If either of you feels like telling me where you are (email is fine if you don’t want to post it here) I can see if I know anyone in your area(s) who might be able to help.
Thanks, Steve. Yes, I wrote a couple of respectful letters to the pastor of the nearby parish and he simply never responded at all. Nice, eh? One other person that I know of apparently requested it to his face and the pastor simply said ‘No. You can go to St. John Cantius if you want that Mass.” Which, by the way, is/was my parish before my life was turned upside down.
And no, I don’t know anyone at that parish who is traditional, much like Lorra, isolated in my traditional Catholicism. I know one single person from where I used to work who, every now and then, offers to pick me up and take me to an SSPX chapel that I used to go to periodically. Bless her heart. It’s wonderful to go there but of course, I can’t receive Holy Communion.
I like your suggestion to ‘look east’! There’s a church not too far from me that I could probably take a bus to. I can’t remember for sure but I think the sign outside says Ukrainian Catholic Church. I’m going to look into that. Thanks for that idea.
I’m in the Chicago area, the northwest suburb of Park Ridge.
Hi Elizabeth,
The church you’re describing is Immaculate Conception Ukrainian Catholic Church in Palatine, IL. It’s a small but wonderful little parish where the liturgy in either English or Ukrainian will bring joy to your heart (especially the bells — you’ll know what I mean after you go there ;o) We have been there several times when we visit family in the Chicago area. Do please try to get there, by all means. And I’ll say a prayer that you can. God bless, David.
Thanks for the tip, David. Actually, I did a little research and the one I was thinking of is St. Joseph the Betrothed-Ukrainian Catholic Church. It’s in Norridge on Cumberland Avenue. It’s not too far from me but unfortunately the bus that could take me there doesn’t run on Sundays, dang it. I may go sometime via a cab, at least once.
The church you mentioned is certainly intriguing but Palatine is a long hike from where I live and there’d be no way to get out there, but thanks for the suggestion and your prayers!
Tell me, are there certain things I should be aware of beforehand when or if I attend a Divine Liturgy at either of these churches? I understand that their Liturgies aren’t at all similar to the Roman Catholic Mass, let alone that there are many posture differences, i.e., standing throughout, lots of singing, etc. Perhaps I could just stand in the back and try to be invisible the first time 🙂
Steve, thank you. Yes, there was an attempt to get the TLM here locally about 5 years ago. The pastor even brought the priest who does the Indult Mass to give a talk and demonstration on it, but the parishoners fought him the more he tried to slowly implement “traditional” changes. I was so hopeful at first, but the pastor eventually got moved–I’m pretty sure ‘kicked out’ is more like it. Very sad, and I think it added to my despair. I have been in the Columbus, OH diocese since 2002, and there hasn’t been one additional TLM offered other than the Indult. Implementation of Summorum Pontificum isn’t welcome here, obviously.
I love the Eastern Rite, too, and attended it for a few years while living in California, but distance to one here is equally problematic. We are really to the point of considering moving–that seems to be our only answer.
Elizabeth, be assured that I will keep you in my prayers. How hard could it be to remember you, since I am constantly lamenting my own situation? 😉 And I know it doesn’t count to fulfill our Sunday obligation, but it still has helped me to follow along with the Mass here. May God’s peace be with you. http://www.livemass.org/LiveMass/Live.html
Char, my hearty goes out to you because I could have written your comment myself. Indeed, I am damned if I do, and damned if I don’t. If I go to the novus ordo, I am miserable. For those of you who don’t know, I have tried everything, even what Char’s confessor suggested. As I have elsewhere said, that sounds nice and pious and flowery, but doesn’t hold much water after a years of doing it. The fact is that I am starving for grace.
So, if I go to the novus ordo I am miserable; if I attend Mass and confession at either an SSPX or sedevacantist chapel, I wonder if I am doing the right thing.
It seems no matter which way I go, there is a dilemma. Countless times I have thought it would be best to just sit home altogether; but then I am in the same place as you, dear Char – what do I tell the priest in confession? I have to tell him, and he is not going to understand why I am doing what I am doing.
—————————————————————-
Oakes, this is for you. I appreciate your posts, but I am a lifelong Catholic who has been in this battle since it began in the sixties. I am coming from a different place than you. All of this is new to you. You aren’t battle weary yet. I’d ask you to check back with me in fifty years, but I’ll be dead and, God willing, gone to my reward.
I am going to keep everyone here in my heart and my prayers, commending all of you to Our Blessed Mother especially during this month of May. Please pray for me as well.
My prayer for myself is that She definitively, once and for all and in a very clear manner, tell me what to do.
God bless us all, and thank you Steve for providing this outlet for us. It helps to know we are not alone.
CHICAGO
St Mary of Perpetual Help
Location: 1039 West 32nd Street – Chicago, IL 60622
Mass Time: Sun 8:30 am
Phone number: (773) 927-6646
Website: http://www.stmaryofperpetualhelp.com
St John Cantius Church
Location: 825 N. Carpenter Street – Chicago, IL 60622
Mass Time: Sun 7:30 am & 12:30 pm – Mon – Fri 6:00 am, Sat 8:30 am
Phone number: (312) 243-7373
Website: http://www.cantius.org
Shrine of Christ The King Sovereign Priest
Location: 6415 South Woodlawn Ave – Chicago, IL 60637
Mass Time: Sun 8 am & 10 am – Mon 8 am, Tue 6:30 pm, Wed-Sat 8 am
Additional Masses: 25th of Each Month: Festive High Mass with choral music for the commemoration of the Divine Infant King. This monthly is offered at 7:00 pm if a weeknight or on a Saturday. If the 25th is a Sunday, it is at 10:00 am. See the website under “EVENTS” for specific times.
Phone number: (773) 363-7409
Website: http://www.institute-christ-king.org/chicago/
Priest: Monsignor R. Michael Schmitz, Vicar General in the Institute and Provincial for the United States and Canon Matthew Talarico, Vice-Rector
St Thomas More Church
Location: 2825 W. 81th. Street – Chicago, IL 60652
Mass Time: Sun 12 pm – 1st Sat 9:30 am
Phone number: (773) 436-4444
Priest: Fr Charles Fanelli
St Daniel the Prophet Church
Location: 5337 S. Natoma Ave. – Chicago, IL 60638
Mass Time: 2nd Sun 5 pm – 1st Fri 10:30 pm
Phone number: (773) 586-1223
Thanks, atsa4you, for that list. Chicago is certainly luckier than a lot of places with the number of traditional Masses available. St. John Cantius is my parish….I just can’t get to it anymore. I can’t get to any of these; that’s the problem 🙂 But thanks.
Elizabeth
Sorry Elizabeth.. 🙁
I wish more Novus Ordo “ostriches” could see comments like yours and many others here and elsewhere and have some compassion and empathy for those like you who are struggling with state of the church. Theres way too much “Kumbuya” which I think summarizes this Pontificate. Last Sunday, our wonderful priest announced his retirement effective July 1 so he could focus all of his efforts on supporting our TLM community. We are so blessed to have such a wonderful Sacred Servant who’s eyes and ears are wide open. Pray for him as we will for you to find what I know will be an answer to your outcry.
Steve J (too many Steves)
Hello, Elizabeth: We attend St. John Cantius. We live downtown, only a few L line stops away. But I know that many people drive in many miles from the suburbs. I could ask around.
As a partial correction/addition to what atsa4you posted above. There are actually FOUR masses every Sunday-a Tridentine Low Mass in Latin (obviously), A New Mass in English, A New Mass in Latin and a Tridentine High Mass. In addition, weekdays and Saturdays there are always at least two masses-usually a Tridentine Low Mass and a New Mass in English. Interestingly, the most popular Sunday Mass seems to be the New Mass in Latin–though this may be at least partly a factor of its 11:00 time.
I defy (respectfully) any dyed in the wool anti-Novus-Ordo person to attend the New Mass in Latin at Cantius and report that it’s not beautiful, reverent and spiritually nourishing. So that while I think the post Vatican-II replacement of the Old Mass with the New Mass was an awful thing, the New Mass in the abstract is not intrinsically evil or negative. In fact when celebrated intelligently and reverently, it is a good and positive thing, as it must be by the very nature of what it is. (Michael Davies made this point, I think.)
So, I suppose our neo-Catholic friends might say that what is done at Cantius (with the New Mass) could be done anywhere. But I would reject that. I think the New Mass is done reverently at Cantius because the spirit and tradition of the Old Mass informs it. What I think IS true is that a committed pastor could set up the Old Mass anywhere along with other traditions–including traditional music if he has a bit of talent–and, so to speak, get people to like it.
A fascinating and incredibly inspiring documentary about our church can be found here: http://www.cantius.org/go/about_us/category/video_about_saint_john_cantius_church/
Oakes: Perhaps you could contact these folks and advise them as to the actual Mass times, so they can update and correct their website?
http://www.latinmassschedule.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=54&Itemid=2
Done. Useful site, though obviously travelers would be advised to confirm Mass times directly. Cheers!
atsa4you: The list is correct because that list is meant to be ONLY for the traditional Latin Mass, not the Novus Ordos.
Thanks Elizabeth…just trying to be helpful. I agree with you that there’s no way to “glam up” the Novus Ordo, even with Latin. That doesn’t mean I think it’s invalid, just not preferable. We soon may start seeing TLM in garages and basements, crazy as that may sound. My Priest said that upon his retirement he will continue to offer TLM and in his words: “Hopefully here, but somewhere”
What a wonderful priest you’ve been blessed with! Man, I pray you’re right that we’ll start hearing about TLMs being offered in garages and basements. The catacombs, eh?
By the way, I sure didn’t mean my comment to you to come out sounding as snarky as it did, regarding the website that only publishes Tridentine Masses. Sometimes my directness betrays my intent!
I didn’t take it that way at all. We are all part of the same Remnant Army and must do whatever we can to support one another directly and prayerfully. You WILL find answers!
You guys are absolutely right. I’m an idiot.
Thanks, Oakes. That’s wonderfully kind. Who knows? Maybe there’s some Park Ridge regular 7:30 or 12:30 Cantius Mass.
By the way, the list that was provided which omitted the Novus Ordo Mass times at Cantius was probably because he was responding to me and I do not attend the Novus Ordo, even if it’s at Cantius. Yes, it’s beautifully reverent and in Latin, which might be why it seems to be the most popular there, but those of us that know the Traditional Mass, the prayers, the Ordo in general, are well aware that even a reverent N.O. is sadly lacking in Catholicity, which was the intent, wasn’t it? To make it more palatable to Protestants. Even the reverent ones, even done absolutely according to the rubrics. The prayers and the structure are not the same as in the Tridentine Mass. I do not think the Novus Ordo is evil or illegitimate. It is valid. But it’s not spiritually nourishing, even in Latin and reverently done. Just my opinion.
I agree, the good Mr. Spalding’s defiance notwithstanding.
I think I pretty much agree with both of you. Even at it’s best the Novos Ordo is obviously, well, inferior. So while it’s valid and therefore “good enough”, at least from the point of view of receiving sacramental grace, it’s beyond me why mere validity or “goodenoughness” is something we should settle for, especially when it comes to the Mass and especially when there is such an obviously better alternative right there, all ready to go, as they say. I’ve heard sone Neo-Catholics say that the New Mass should be endured as a “penance”. That’s just about the most screwed up thing I’ve ever heard. There is a place for penance in our spiritual lives, but if there’s one thing that should NEVER be a penance, it’s the Mass.
Well said.
I agree with you, Elizabeth. It is not just the Mass. It is the FAITH.