Since we’ve been waxing apocalyptic here of late, it’s not at all surprising that certain private revelations have come up which warn of dire things to come in the immediate future. Foremost among these in the comment boxes has been “Maria Divine Mercy”, whose “messages” from on high can be found here.
I admit, I read with interest certain of her prophecies, particularly after she predicted the departure of Pope Benedict from the papal office a year in advance (and repeatedly so) and certain other messages that seemed interestingly timed, like warnings of coming earthquakes just a few days before LA, Yellowstone, Chile, Oklahoma, and others started experiencing earthquakes of and unusual seismic activity. There are things I can’t explain about these “messages”, things that were predicted which seem unlikely without foreknowledge of some kind.
And while most of the dozen or so I read seemed compatible with Catholic life, they almost always made me feel uneasy. I certainly have no authority to confirm them or, for that matter, to condemn them. Since I know it will come up, I’ll say this: I don’t discount them because of what they say about Pope Francis; he may not be the false prophet that MDM’s “messages” say he is, but he’s doing plenty of damage either way, and I am forced to admit that if he were revealed to be this “false prophet”, my most likely reaction would be, “Well, that explains some things.” Nor do I discount them because they claim that Pope Benedict was forced out of office. I’m afraid that that’s a possibility I haven’t yet been able to fully discount — and logic demands we admit that if he was coerced, he would hardly confess it when asked if whatever danger he had been threatened with still existed.
But this is all speculation. If we’re going to personally accept or reject private revelation that the Church has not yet spoken definitively on, it should be for more substantive reasons than things which can neither be proven or disproven within the contents of those “revelations”. There are certain aspects in some of the MDM messages which force me to conclude that they are most likely not genuine. The messages are supposed to be dictations from Mary, God the Father, and Jesus, but the messages themselves do not, in my opinion, reflect the sense of the way any of these heavenly figures would speak or have spoken (when taking other approved apparitions into account). Further, I find the messages like this deeply troubling, and entirely outside the realm of Catholic thought. My analysis is lifted directly from the comment boxes:
The big problem with that message … is this:
“Never interfere with the Power of the Holy Spirit for this is a very serious sin. In these messages the Voice of the Holy Spirit is being poured out to save mankind from eternal damnation. You may deny Me, your Jesus, or the Divine messages given to you by My Beloved Mother and you will be forgiven. For all of you have the right to discern such Holy Messages because of your gift of free will. However, when you reject the Holy Spirit and publicly blaspheme against it this is an eternal sin and only a miracle, sanctioned by God the Father, can save your soul.”
I have been skeptical since I first encountered the messages, but some of them confirmed my own suspicions or predicted things that seem impossible to have predicted. But it was when I read the words above that I felt strongly for the first time that these messages are fake. The Church never demands that we follow private revelation. Instead, she teaches:
“Throughout the ages, there have been so-called ‘private’ revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium[collective sense of the faithful] knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. Christian faith cannot accept ‘revelations’ that claim to surpass or correct the revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such ‘revelations’” (Catechism of the Catholic Church 67).
God would never demand that people believe what the Church — to which He has given the power to “bind and loose” — does not compel them to believe. Nor would He say that those who are skeptical of private revelation are “blaspheming” against the Holy Spirit. This is a major red flag. First, because this is not the Church’s understanding of the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The Church believes (see Aquinas/Augustinehttp://www.newadvent.org/summa/3014.htm ) that the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is actually the act of “final impenitence” — namely, that a person has so cultivated a habit of malicious sin that he is unable to be repentant at the hour of death. It has also at times been understood to mean suicide, because again, final penitence for the mortal sin of taking one’s own life is impossible. (You could argue that these are both sins against hope, especially hope of eternal salvation, which is a virtue strongly associated with the Holy Spirit). Secondly, because this seeks to squash criticism or critical analysis of these private revelations. Truth bears every scrutiny and stands unscathed. Trying to create the fear of hell in those who might be critical of private, non-binding revelation is simply not in line with any Catholic conception of God. As much as there is something interesting happening here, I am growing very wary of it’s nature and source. That it could bear good fruit in your life may have nothing to do with the messages themselves and everything to do with God rewarding your faith in Him, even if these are not real messages *from* Him. He can certainly draw good from evil, so the experience you’ve had is not outside the realm of possibility.
Also germane to the discussion is something pointed out by a commenter named Tim, who says:
Visions are not like sacraments, which produce their effect by their own power (that is, the power of Christ working through them) in those who do not place an obstacle. One of the most approved series of visions are those of the Sacred Heart to St. Margaret Mary. On one occasion, He had told her to do something, but her Superior did not approve. When He came again, she asked Him about this, and He replied: “Therefore not only do I desire that you should do what your Superior commands, but also that you should do nothing of all that I order without their consent. I love obedience, and without it no one can please me” (Autobiography of St. Margaret Mary # 47).” That’s quite a contrast from the “Jesus” of mdm who says” Obedience to Me at all times is expected of you.” (message of Oct. 13, 2011)
It always comes back to obedience. To the visible structure of the Church that God left us. We simply can’t trust any private revelation that seeks to circumvent or supersede the Church’s God-given authority.
I believe that it’s possible for the man everyone thinks is pope to not truly be pope, and thus give the appearance of promulgating error, but I also believe that the only man who has the authority to address or correct this would be a legitimate successor of Saint Peter — whether he says it from Rome or from a catacomb somewhere. We don’t know what will befall the Church before Christ comes again, but there’s enough biblical prophecy and approved private revelation out there telling us it may not be pretty that it’s not unreasonable to believe that it…may not be pretty.
I’m really not interested in starting a flame war in the comments, but I feel it’s important for me to address this issue since I brought it up by quoting Dr. Bowring’s work.
For the time being, I’m forced to conclude that Maria Divine Mercy’s messages — whether in their entirety or in part — should not be trusted. I’ll leave it to the Church to put the nail in that coffin or not.
UPDATE (4/16/2014): The Archbishop of Dublin has now released a statement condemning the messages of Maria Divine Mercy. You can read his statement here.
Steve Skojec is a storyteller, writer, blogger, photographer, designer, and sci-fi fan. He is the Founding Publisher and Executive Director of OnePeterFive.com. He received his BA in Communications and Theology from Franciscan University of Steubenville in 2001. He lives in Arizona with his wife Jamie and six of their seven children.
Thank you, Steve. Sanely stated. Now don your asbestos suit. 😉
What will you do, Steve, when the Church tells you the Holy Eucharist is only present during Mass and that Eucharistic adoration is meaningless? Given where we are now in the unfolding of apostasy in the Church, that possibility is even probable. Maria Divine Mercy’s messages, as Kelly Bowring points out, say nothing contrary to Church doctrine–unlike our present pope. You seem somewhat ambivalent and confused concerning what is happening, as if you are working things out through your writing. This only adds to the confusion that is building every single day. Discernment comes through prayer, not chatting with others on the internet and getting the opinion of every confused and frightened soul out there. Let God take care of the messages of MDM. The truth will eventually become apparent. What MDM faults, as far as I can see, is being critical of what God is giving her. She–nor Christ, nor anyone who speaks to her–say that one HAS TO BELIEVE the messages. That is a misinterpretation of what she has said. There are some present-day visionaries whom I do not trust, nor am I drawn to them, but I refrain from publicly scorning them because I do not want to mock the Holy Spirit if He is at work. One of the things MDM has been told is that confusion will become overwhelming in the Church. Let’s not add to it through unnecessary speculation and idol chatter on the net.
I have an obligation to be conscious of my example, Barbara. As I said, when I first read some of the messages of MDM, I considered that there might be truth in them. And I don’t entirely discount the idea now — I leave that to the Church. But I am often reminded of the influence of my words, and I don’t want to lead anyone to believe that I am endorsing private revelations that make me personally uncomfortable.
I once had a priest call me to share with me a message he said Christ wanted me to hear. I started to write it down, and then at one point I stopped. This was a priest I trusted. I knew first hand of his experiences with the supernatural. But something in the words rang a discordant note, and I knew with certainty that despite the fact that they sounded good, they were not from God.
I later told the priest that this message had made me very uncomfortable. He took it to prayer, and later apologized, realizing that he had been deceived.
There is great danger in putting too much trust in private revelation. There is a reason we are not required to believe in it, even when the Church approves it: because it is not in any way necessary for our salvation.
Messages which emphasize too strongly that the messenger is the only conduit by which essential warnings from God will reach the faithful stretch credulity. They push the boundaries even moreso when they encourage a sort of disobedient spirit, or the threat of punishment for speaking against them (despite the fact that they are not even approved.)
But caution, caution, caution is the word of the day. Especially for those who see so much evil sweeping its way through the Church and thus want to believe in these messages. I had those temptations for most of the last week. But I had to listen to the voice within me, the same one that warned me about Pope Francis, that just because these messages speak against what he is and what he is doing — and tell us what we want to hear — doesn’t make them true.
Principalities and powers, Barbara. They are smarter than us. The devil can appear as an “angel of light.” I’ve waged enough spiritual warfare in my life to know that we stand no chance against them on our own.
Since I wrote my post “Something wicked,” I’ve suffered no few spiritual attacks, if I’m going to be uncomfortably honest. And consequently, I have been praying more than I have in many years. Maybe ever. And foremost among these prayers is the request for discernment.
I actually feel a certain disappointment that I believe the messages MDM is receiving are false. I want God to be providing us with such clear guidance and warnings about what is to come. But I absolutely must trust my God-given instincts, especially after so much prayer. And I can’t, in good conscience, recommend that people follow MDM.
It’s not idle chatter. It’s responsibility.
This is the reason why St. John of the Cross, the Mystical Doctor, says to pay no attention to spiritual phenomena. Anything genuinely from God will produce its effect in the soul without our “doing” anything about it. And we have all we need for salvation from Scripture and Tradition, notably the Fathers and Doctors. We really don’t need further warnings or preparation, since Scripture tells us it will be impossible to deceive the elect.
Our only concern is to be obedient and prayerfully attentive to the Holy Spirit so that we may be counted among those elect.
It is you yourself who initiated the discussion about MDM in your post ‘Something Wicked’. If you are not clear yourself about something, why are you referring to it at all? It serves no purpose but to incite superficial discussions which do nothing to cultivate true discernment. Much of what is discussed on so-called Catholic blogs IS idle chatter. Your discernment leaves much to be desired if you are writing and then second guessing what you have written. It fosters more confusion and more chatter. Do not assume anyone is ‘putting too much trust’ in private revelations. Our obedience is to the Faith, and, if one cultivates true prayer in quiet, one will steer clear of the sensational. Right now, no one is more sensational than Pope Bergoglio. I am more disturbed about being led astray by him. You are so correct: the demons are crafty and they often are disguised as good. You would have no ‘responsibility’ regarding MDM if you had not yourself initiated the discussion about her and referred to her messages. It was irresponsible to bring her into the discussion.
Actually, Barbara, someone sent me the link to Dr. Bowring’s article subsequent to that post. I posted about how similar it was to my own thinking, and how odd I found that. I mentioned throughout that post that it was for consideration only, and I advised caution in approaching MDM.
You can read it again here:
http://blog.steveskojec-staging.mrdsdzb3-liquidwebsites.com/2014/04/10/word-maria-divine-mercy/
I’ve been consistent. Am I working some things out in a public forum? Absolutely. I find that discussion brings clarity, and I’m not so convinced of my own correctness that I think I won’t benefit from the knowledge and insight of others.
This is what Catholics should be doing. Questioning (with charity), discussing, evaluating, exercising critical judgment, all while standing firm on the solid ground of established doctrine.
God gave us an intellect and a free will. I expect He would prefer that we use both.
One of the predictions that seems to be inherent in all apparitions is that there will be mass confusion in the Church, confusion such as we have never seen before. Chatting on the net means that thousands of confused people will be sharing their opinion. You obviously think this will help clarify the confusion. It will not. It will only generate more confusion. Only a deep penetrating union with our Eucharistic God will lead one through this spiritual darkness. First you refer to MDM’s messages in ‘Something Wicked’, now you are stating that you are pretty sure ‘she is a fake’. In your last post, I got the sense you are regretting writing ‘Something Wicked’, as now you are having ‘spiritual attacks’ from doing so. What this is doing is generating people pooling their own human ideas, not trusting God in the darkness. It is human to want to be ‘on the right team’., and it is grace-filled to trust God in the darkness. While you work out your ambivalence on the net, everybody’s got an opinion.about the ‘dangers’ of MDM. The Church has not ruled against her. Leave it alone. What is intriguing is that while people are focusing on what they are not competent to conclude about MDM, the LaSalette prophecy is being fulfilled before our eyes. This is an approved apparition which states:: ‘Rome will lose the Faith, and the antichrist will sit in Rome.’:
I believe it was Pope Urban V1 who said about apparitions, ‘It is better to believe that not believe’ One gets the sense from what comments are out there that Heaven should not come to earth to help us through the greatest spiritual battle the Church has ever faced. For example, while the sophists are concluding with you that MDM is ‘dangerous’ no one is talking about the gross and false statements Mr. Bergoglio continues to babble. Get a catechism and draw close to the living God. You do not know whether or not MDM is real or fake. No one is asking you to figure it out, and your own referral to her, and then your subsequent denial of her, distracts from the main issue: the deterioration of the Church. It has been suggested that people want to believe MDM, I could say the same thing about those who reject her messages. They need them NOT to be true.. Why does God ‘sit back and leave us confused’? Because He wants us each to live in Faith and Trust in Him in the dark.. Draw close to God and He will draw close to you.
The devil can quote scripture.
Until a competent Church authority affirms MDM, I will go by a two thirds rule:
1/3 chance that she is channeling God, Jesus, Our Lady, and the Holy Spirit on a daily basis and getting it out on the internet.
1/3 chance that she is a fraud or mentally ill.
1/3 chance that the other side is using her to lead good Christians astray.
Let’s say that a good deal of what she says is true-ish. There is still the chance that this is all demonic disinformation and propaganda. See my above quote about the devil quoting scripture.
I know some folks who have gone to mediums and gotten “messages” from dead relatives. When asked for a sign that it really was from the dead relative, some information was passed on that only that relative could have known.
My reply to my family member was that the Adversary knows a lot more than us, and can use this information to deceive.
I take the same view of MDM and the other conduits we have running around.
Please keep up the good work. If the Catholic blogosphere is truly nothing but idle chatter, then perhaps some folks should tune out. As for me, it gives me comfort to know that there are other folks out there that are struggling with the same things that I am.
I find it quite remarkable how similar my experiences surrounding Francis and MDM mirror your own.
I’ve mentioned numerous times before how I (and my wife and 14 yr old special needs daughter) recoiled in our spirits when Francis walked out onto the Loggia.
That experience immediately led me to search the internet to see if anyone else had an ‘explanation’ for the unexpected resignation of BXVI and election of a man who, literally, sent ‘shivers’ through my soul. Of course that led to my discovering MDM and her fulfilled prophecy of the resignation and her messages regarding The False Prophet, which seemed to correspond with the initial reactions I had experienced.
The following weeks/months were ones in which I eagerly awaited MDM’s messages, which in so many cases, echoed the deep sense of foreboding I had for the world and most especially the Church. Like you, I really wanted to believe that the messages were true, but unfortunately, somewhere along the line my spiritual ‘gut’ (the same one that warned me about Francis) was ‘telling me’ that all was not kosher with some of the messages.
I was initially disappointed, and still am to a degree, that I no longer believe the messages. Oh how I wish that Heaven would cease being silent in regard to the devastation occurring within the Church. I can think of no greater chastisement than for God to ‘sit back’ and let us continue along this path of destruction. The darkness and confusion that has been brought on by the resignation and subsequent election of Francis must have no other author than Satan (who it must always be remembered, is ultimately nothing more than a tool in the hands of our providential Lord – i.e. God’s ‘wager’ with Satan regarding Job).
We are truly being spiritually chastised and only the Lord knows how long it will continue and to what degree. In the mean time, our only recourse is to seek our Eucharistic Lord through prayer (ie.Rosary), sacraments and consecration to our Lady, in the hope that we too might not succumb to the great deception and/or despair.
Thank you. The similarities really are remarkable. It’s helpful to hear that you’ve gone through the same thought process on this.
“But caution, caution, caution is the word of the day. Especially for those who see so much evil sweeping its way through the Church and thus want to believe in these messages. I had those temptations for most of the last week. But I had to listen to the voice within me, the same one that warned me about Pope Francis, that just because these messages speak against what he is and what he is doing — and tell us what we want to hear — doesn’t make them true.”
There is a certain degree of mischaracterization here Steve that implies that the evil that is in fact “sweeping” its way through the church” somehow, is what begets the “want” to believe in the messages given to MDM. It isn’t about a “want” or desire to believe, its more about a spirit of gratitude for “connecting the dots, that certainly nobody in the church is doing, and certainly none of even the well intended bloggers or publications are doing, who all sound the alarm and are certainly aware that “something” is seriously wrong, and then focus their attention on whether its ok to criticize the Pope, but stop short of acknowledging prophecy of apostasy in the church that speaks precisely about what is actually happening, and what is about to happen all around us in these times. For us personally, these messages have done that. They’ve connected the dots and deepened our faith immensely. This is not a defense of the messages, but they have provided answers for us and driven our desire to seek out and defend Traditional authentic Catholicism. Our personal belief and gratitude for these messages, is borne out of our love for the church, which of course, will prevail. At least we understand and acknowledge what is happening, and do as best we can to be prepared for the warning.
I apologize for my part in “making a mess” on your blog. I believe I know your heart, and will always keep you in my prayers.
We do not need MDM to tell us what is going on. We have eyes that we use to read and observe, and ears with which to hear. We know the faith, and we know when it is being contradicted. We can see that the present church is playing right into the hands of the enemy. In fact, I will go so far as to say that the church is beginning to remind me of Judas: what will you give me if I hand Him over to you?
The reason why certain persons, in my opinion, become obsessed with apparitions, alleged or otherwise, is to fill the massive void that the church created after Vatican II.
Yes, I think the preoccupation with what this or that “visionary” is messaging comes from the great hunger people have for God and to hear His voice in some sense. Yet we all can ‘hear’ it through our deep prayers and living a good sacramental life with frequent confession. My own reconversion 20 years ago came because of an apparition site. I know longer follow those messages but I understand what draws people to them. So many lackluster parishes are not teaching or filling the void so many feel. Little chance for confession, little to no teachings on the Truths of the faith or spiritual life. I especially notice this when I travel because I am fortunate to be in a good diocese and in a town with faithful parishes. And over time I have known even friends so attached to a messenger that the friendship was jeopardized when I did not believe in them. THAT is a huge red flag warning! We cannot put our hopes in ‘visionaries’. Our Lord gave us a Church and we have thousands of Saints to look to. Let us do so.
I have to make a correction in my post. I wrote: “In fact, I will go so far as to say that the church is beginning to remind me of Judas….”.
I should have written “churchmen” instead of “church.”
I am so grateful for Steve’s opinion about Maria Divine Mercy. It has helped me work out my own thoughts about it, which are similar.
With all due respect to Steve and anyone else here, the most insightful and charitable comments here are from Barbara Jensen. I am humbled by her wisdom. We cannot and should not ignore the “800 pound gorilla in the room”, that prophecy is unfolding in real time before our eyes, and in truth, most ignore or are blind to it. We are surrounded by apostasy.
I see no one here ignoring the gorilla in the room. Steve said, quite clearly, that there is a crisis in the Church. He also said that we don’t need seers to point it out–and that comports totally with Church teachings and Scripture.
We already have all we need. Nothing to be gained by being spiritual thrillseekers running after every new ride in some supernatural Disneyland.
Wow Terrye…talk about the need for an asbestos suit…
Steve, if you have some spare time this weekend, read this:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html
And weep.
Steve, you wrote: “And while most of the dozen or so I read seemed compatible with Catholic life…”
That’s called deception. Mingle the truth with lies to the point that the gullible and ignorant will no longer be able to distinguish. It’s an application of the Pareto Principle. Put in 80% correct theology, but sprinkle it with 20% doctrinal acrobatics which is what matters to the devil. Bear in mind that Satan is the Father of lies and can easily disguise as an angel of light to confound the unwary and uninitiated. But as they say, it only takes a drop of poison to make an otherwise perfect cup of brewed coffee to be fatal. Nobody who is not suicidal will want to drink the poison it its entirely. Similarly, no lukewarm catholic will take MDM if everything she said were all lies. MDM espouses prayer, but that’s expected in all false visionaries. Except for atheists, or satanists, no one will take her as a prophet from God, if she didn’t.
You also said: “…. I certainly have no authority to confirm them or, for that matter, to condemn them.” You do, as a concerned Catholic. Firstly, you are obliged to discern right from wrong. If you are schooled in catechism, which I think you are, it is clear as day that MDM condemns herself. Millenarianism, Redemption that can be done by man. The Second Coming as a final plan of salvation. Rejecting the Pope. Seeking prayers to save souls who die in the state of mortal sin. etc. etc. etc. You see, even a 12-year old schooled in catechism can spot them right away.
http://midwaystreet.wordpress.com/updates/
I am not a philosopher nor a theologian, but I can, without a doubt, that the messages of Maria Divine Mercy are divine. They do not make me “feel” uncomfortable. In fact, since I am following them, the love of my Lord is experience in my heart and in my life. No one message have ever encouraged me to hate or not to honor my Lord and his word. The messages encourage prayers, recitation of the rosary, daily communion with Our Lord Jesus, Love one another, follow the commandments. I may not be a writer with sophisticated words, but I can certainly assert that my Lord and saviour Jesus Christ has inspired me through these messages and this can only come from one source and it is a divine source… the rest is of no importance to me.
In Christ,
You obviously have not heard about deception that Satan the father of lies present to you. Even the devil can disguise as an angel and quote scripture. In asking you to pray and even go to mass, the devil loves you as you commit the mortal sins of sacrilege. Because in your state of unrepented mortal sins for embracing the Heresies and Schismatic teachings of MDM, as well as your disobedience to Church Authority, you have committed abomination in your prayers. And should you take communion without confessing your embrace of MDM, you commit sacrilege. And if you go to confession and deliberately omit your mortal sins of heresy and schism, you have lied to God and commit another sacrilege. Satan loves you for that.
Prov 28:9
He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be an abomination.
There is no sin in disbelieving private revelations, but when you do and the messages contain heresies, you sin. Consider just two from MDM and it only takes a drop of poison to make a drink fatal.
25 May 2013: “And now you, My daughter, have been sent to prepare the way for My Second Coming so that I can bring salvation to the world and so that My New Paradise can be realized. This has been foretold, but will they listen?
15 June 2013: “As My Second Coming is to take place soon and as My Final Mission to come back in order to bring humanity the final salvation I promised is unveiled, history will be repeated.”
Even a 12-year old schooled in the bible and catechism knows that the Second Coming of Christ is JUDGEMENT DAY not some final plan of salvation. The church tells us that Christ died for our sins ONCE for all humanity for all time. Your MDM wants a reboot. You like that??? I don’t know about you, but there is nothing in the bible about a rebooted salvation.
MDM’s 25 May message above contains two heresies, One already mentioned, the other is this “New Paradise” I can understand the ignorance of many Catholics on this. But if they just Google search about it, this new paradise on earth is Millenarianism which has been rejected by the Church as heretical. There are other MDM passages too numerous to quote that promises this paradise on earth for 1000 years. Sheer heresy.
These are just a couple of heresies. There are others. On top of that, the messages are received via automatic writing which is a form of occultism and spiritualism. Automatic writing has never been and will never be part of the mystical tradition of the Church. It is condemned by the Church as temporary demonic possession. You like that?
I thought these dissections of MDM were closed to further discussion. I am weary of hearing heavy handed, arrogant and judgmental diatribes that insult our Lord and Lady by implying that MDM suggestions that one should deepen one’s faith in these trying times through prayer and sacraments, are deceptions of Satan! Read these prior two postings, and you tell me which is of the Lord and which is diabolical. You MDM “haters” are obsessive and insidious. Keep doing what you are doing Ligia, and disregard those who feel they can replace God and judge your actions. Keep praying the Rosary, reciting the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, and go before the Lord in Eucharistic Adoration, and Trust in him. The Truth will prevail, and soon.
Steve J
Yes, continue praying in your state of unrepented mortal sins. You atsa4you are obviously an infernal ignoramus who prefer to blaspheme God with your sacrilege. I already pointed the error of MDM and her gullible minions as part of my fraternal correction and you persist to defend them. Invincible ignorance can no longer excuse you and have committed the same sins as MDM for which you have incurred automatic excommunication latae sententiae. Kindly found your own religion and not remain a festering hemorrhoid in the mystical body of Christ.
I rest my case Lord Alex. I defer to a higher authority than you, starting with my own Priest, whom I am certain you would also “excommunicate” . Your hatred and rage is palpable and frightening. I hope many people will read this and discern your spirit. Peace
Following your conscience when it is not formed properly according to church teachings is a most dangerous conscience and clearly shows when you follow MDM without even so much as checking your catechism on all the heresies like millenarianism, the Second Coming as a final plan of salvation, putting the messages on the same keel as scripture, and the worst of all, the slander of the Pope as the false prophet which has made Christ a LIAR. If you think fraternal correction is vitriolic, you have no idea what God will do to people who slander His Vicar on earth and put lies in His mouth. The bible is quite clear on that.
It is not fraternal correction that is vitriolic, of course, but rather your insulting speech. It is possible to receive purgation here on earth and to know something of what is involved in the way of suffering. There is given a strong desire to save souls. Our role to save souls is not helped by insults to those we would like to persuade.
False, Sonia, no man can save souls, only Christ through the sacraments of the Church can save souls and requires the free will of the sinner to be saved. Fraternal correction does not save souls. It only points out what sin(s) you have committed or planning to commit. The objective is to turn you away from sin and restore you to the path of righteousness. There is nothing insulting in my comments. That’s the typical response of people on the defensive.
God does give us a role in the salvation of souls, yet you choose to misunderstand the meaning of what I said. Obviously God is the judge of our lives, but he gives us a role to help him by showing his love in the world, by praying, and by offering our suffering for souls. He asks us to treat others with love even when we believe they are wrong in things they do, because we don’t know their motivations or inner lives. This is not to say we shouldn’t speak when someone’s soul is in danger, but that any correction must be said out of love like God’s love for us, and that will not turn them away from our words.
Your “fraternal correction” (emphasis “your” ) is irrelevant and meaningless to me, especially in context of your hateful and ugly tone. As I suggested previously, I defer to my Priest, who is in good standing to help me in my discernment, and counsel me accordingly. Its between me and God, Alex. He knows my heart, and he knows yours as well. I am consoled by that.
My goodmess, no less than 7 bishops and archbishops have already condemned MDM and by your contumacy, you remain disobedient. God knows what is in your heart alright.
Peace
Hate you day? Don’t flatter yourself. hate is too strong an emotion to waste on infernal hypocrites like you. Try CONTEMPT. The same contempt Christ had for Pharisees when He said:
“You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the judgement of hell?” Mathew 33:23
The Pharisees simply didn’t do what they preached, but they preached the Torah correctly. MDM and her minions like you, on the other hand, put lies in the mouth of God and be spreading her lies, you cause the “little ones” – those with weak faith and are as readily gullible and ignorant like a child – to fall from grace. Not only have you committed the sins of Schism and Heresy, you have committed the mortal sin of Active Scandal
“If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” Mathew 18:6.
Peace
Although I would say again that it is safest not to read MDM after the bishop’s statement, this comment about those who follow their instinct and conscience and have chosen to read what she says, is so vitriolic as to make one wonder about motivations. The goal is the salvation of souls, one’s own and others. How does your comment work towards that?
What possible motivations does one have when, after already being warned against by no less than 7 bishops and archbishops around the world, they continue to embrace the lies of MDM??? I don’t need to guess their motivations. The bible is quite clear on how your treat unrepentant mortal sinners:
1 Corinthians 5: 12
But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler– not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
And the biblical basis for excommunication:
Mathew 18:17
“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”
God knows that not every person can be as smart as you who know all that the Church teaches, but He knows everyone’s hearts and their desire to follow him and their desire to do his will. Jesus I trust in you! 🙂
Wow. Leave my comment boxes unattended for a day and a hockey game breaks out.
Here’s my final word before I close the comments here and stop this from getting out of control again while I am unable to play moderator:
I believe that people who continue to follow MDM are wrong for doing so, even if they do it for the right reasons. The Church has spoken, even if it has done through a far less than perfect instrument. You don’t need these messages for your salvation, but on the other hand, if they are not from God then they could imperil your souls.
On the other hand, the anti-MDM people need to back the hell off with the condemnations. Alex, I have no idea why you’re so angry about this, but let it go, man. Pray for these people to see the truth, don’t condemn them. Not your job.
Everyone look to Christ. Not to yourself, not to some supposed visionary. CHRIST. He will give you everything that you need.